WEBVTT
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I can't, I can't live with myself
if I let this
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society sleepwalk into disaster, right?
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I can't live with myself
if I don't do everything in my power
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to ensure there's a world for my children.
The important thing...
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I mean, I go out on the street,
I've talked to, I don't know, hundreds,
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of people. Many of them,
many of them immediately say, "Oh, yes,
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Yeah, they're gonna,
they're gonna end up killing us all." ...
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So for example, in the, in the,
in the Birmingham campaign,
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that I mentioned earlier,
5,000 schoolchildren were arrested
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and spent some time in jail. But it
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changed
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the public perception of an entire
country.
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It got attention at the level of the
national government,
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the introduction of the Civil Rights Act.
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That the
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core founding principle of StopAI is that
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superintelligence is inherently
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too dangerous of a technology ever to be
built.
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This is not, um... this
is in contrast to the position of, for
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example, Pause AI,
which says it should not be built until it
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safely. As, as to why Yudkowsky
is not on hunger
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strike, that's a good question.
People can find many different reasons not
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things.
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Uh, hello, everyone. Uh, my name
is Samuel Shadrack.
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Uh, with me, I have Guido, uh, who
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has been
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protesting against creation of
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superintelligence. He is on hunger strike.
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Uh,
I'm just going to ask him some questions,
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more broadly, you know,
about the issue of, you know,
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Why is this a big deal?
What can we do about it?
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And so on. Uh,
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could you maybe just please start by
introducing yourself, you know, like
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what's your background? How did you,
you know, come to this decision where you
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are right now of, you know,
doing a hunger strike?
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Like, where did this begin,
and how did that turn into where we
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now?
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Yeah. Thank you for having me on.
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Um, yeah, my name is Guido Reichstadter.
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I'm 45 years old. Uh, I'm a father of
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two children.
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And I first really became aware of the
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potential to build artificial general
intelligence,
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uh, back in university when I
was studying math and
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physics.
I was probably around 20 years old.
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And, um,
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you know, immediately
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I felt that this would be
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probably the most dangerous technology
that humanity had ever
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tried to build. And, uh, just at the
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time, the, the people
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around me, the information
that I could get seemed to point
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towards this becoming possible in the
second half of the 21st
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century. Um, and I kind of just put it out
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of my mind really,
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until, uh, ChatGPT was
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released. And
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that kind of served as a wake-up call, uh,
that this
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process was going a lot faster than I
expected it to go.
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Not that I thought ChatGPT itself was
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there, right?
But just what it indicated about the
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underlying trend.
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And
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I remember, um,
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beginning to look for more information.
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I found this, uh... I found out
that people had
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been... people had much shorter timelines,
even back in
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2000. Specifically, uh,
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um, there was a paper that
was written in the late '90s by Hans
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Moravec where he looked at the
exponential, uh,
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trend in increasing computational power
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and used a model of some
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neurons to make an estimate of what
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the, like, in a... by analogy,
what kind...
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what, h-
how much computation the human brain does.
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And said this trend will intersect the
computational power of the human brain
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sometime in the 2020s. And
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that should be a warning sign, right?
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That it's becoming,
it's potentially becoming
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possible now
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to create hardware that can do effectively
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what a human brain does, even
if it's not wired up correctly yet,
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right?
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Never before in, you know,
the history of humanity has it been
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to build a machine that could do anything
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like the computational ability of the
human
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brain, and that's becoming possible now.
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And so, yeah, um, it's... I go- it
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got me worried when I saw Chat GP-
GPT come out, seeing the
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continuing trends, seeing the billions
and billions of dollars in
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capital pouring into the field
and greater and greater numbers of
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researchers being devoted to cracking
that problem.
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Like, I'm 45. Never in my life
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has there been so much
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energy, talent, resources,
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capital, excitement behind building
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this technology. And I feel that
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we are in a condition of imminent danger
right now because we don't
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know where the line is.
We don't know how far we
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have to go to cross
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the barrier
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to something that's as generally capable
as a human
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mind. And we also know
that there's a lot of momentum, a lot of
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inertia in society.... and that if we want
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to have the option to stop this process,
we have to
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do...
we have to change the way the world works,
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and that takes time and effort and energy.
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So it's kind of like the situation where
we're on the Titanic,
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huge ship with a lot of momentum
and inertia,
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and we see an iceberg in front of us,
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and we don't know if we
are able to maneuver the
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ship out of the path of
that iceberg in time.
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And if so, uh, you know, if it's,
if that's not the case,
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right now. It's like,
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if you're in a car
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driving downhill
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and you have no brakes, your brakes
are gone, you're in an
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emergency well before you pass over the
edge of that
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cliff.
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That's the situation which the world
is in right now.
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There is an uncontrolled race to
artificial
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superintelligence,
which we have good reason to suspect would
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have catastrophic or
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extinction-level consequences for the
human race-
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Okay.
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...
and we have no effective mechanism to stop
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currently. So, um,
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in 2024, I put my career on hold. Uh,
I was a jeweler
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in Miami.
I started a business with my ex-wife, uh,
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years working at that, and,
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um, moved to San Francisco
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to try and
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put some brakes on this (laughs) runaway
car,
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right? Um,
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I landed October... I think it was 17th.
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On the 21st,
I was sitting down in front of OpenAI
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having chained their, their door shut,
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right?
I believe we all have a right to stop
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this race that threatens our lives.
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And
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in the absence of government action,
which is...
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has not been forthcoming,
we have a responsibility to stop it now
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precaution, out of the need to prevent
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the risk of devastating consequences to
people we love.
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So, um,
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yeah, I, I don't think there's any...
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Any day is a bad day to take direct action
to stop this
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race. And in fact, we need to see a lot,
lot more of it, and that's,
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that's
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one of the prime motivations for me going
on this hunger strike,
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is
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partly to make a public demand of these
companies to stop
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putting my life and the life of my
children and our
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community in danger,
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to do everything in their power, which
is far greater than
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mine, to work towards an end to the global
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race which is necessary
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for our safety, right?
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Yeah. Um-
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We need a globally binding treaty
which prohibits the development of
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this extremely dangerous technology,
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and to fulfill their duty to
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do everything they can to ensure
that our society
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is made aware of the urgent danger it's
being put
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in by this race and by the companies, like
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Anthropic,
that are participating in it
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their responsibility
while they're doing so.
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It's not enough to
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make nice, safety-sounding
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words, right?
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Mm-hmm.
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You've got... If, if this company is
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going to put the lives of everyone on
Earth
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at risk...
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They have their reasons.
I don't agree with them,
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but regardless,
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they have a responsibility to make sure
that the people whose
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lives they're putting at risk understand
that their lives are being put
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at risk,
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and this is not satisfied by giving a few
speeches or a few
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podcasts here and there, you know?
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It's not satisfied until society
is made aware of this
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urgent threat. So
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finally, if Dario Amodei,
the CEO of Anthropic,
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that,
I'm asking him to meet me face-to-face,
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being, and explain why, and
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I feel that that's not an unreasonable
request.
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I feel that my life has value just as much
as
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his.
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Got it.
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The lives of my children-
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Yeah, got it. Um-
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... they have a right to life.
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Yeah, everything you said
was super useful, but yeah,
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interrupt. I just,
I just want to go to the next question.
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Uh,
because you mentioned specifically
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know, just a disclaimer,
I have never visited, but obviously,
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Twitter, you know, I see the stuff
that gets posted online.
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Uh, in general, like, you know,
if you ask me personally,
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like, for me, it makes sense, like,
you know, political action makes
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sense. Like, I assume, okay, you know,
look, religious leaders have, you know,
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influence over society. You know,
politicians have, you know, influence over
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society. You know,
politics actually matters, and, like,
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social movements actually matter.
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Like, it is not just money that matters.
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Like, it's not just, you know,
billionaires that matter, you know,
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matters. But however, when I look at,
you know, the
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types of, you know, ideas that
are spread in San Francisco, the sense
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I get is that, you know,
if you're building technology,
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like, a tech billionaire, like,
that's the only high-status thing to do.
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Like, if you do that,
you will get respect.
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If you, you know,
become someone like us who's, you know,
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and, you know, start a social movement
and so on, like, you know, people in San
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Francisco don't respect you. And, like,
there's
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very clear, like,
status dynamics going on here,
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even in the minds of people who
are inside that bubble, which,
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that, "Oh, if I, you know,
join these people who are protesting,
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are going to look at me as lower status,
you know, people who won't respect me," so
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on. So-Yeah, I just wanted to ask you,
like, what
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are your opinions on, you know, how, uh,
like, status, social
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approval, respect, like,
how do these things work in San Francisco?
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(laughs)
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Like, how do they work currently and be,
you know, what can we actually done to,
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you know, change that?
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Yes. I'm primarily concerned with
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respecting myself. I don't really care
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about other people's respect.
I have to live my life in a
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way which I can respect
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my own actions in honoring what I believe
is
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true. And
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I think it's
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these- s- this thing about status
is a pernicious
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trap, right?
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Um, you know, I- it's- it reminds me of
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a story, I don't know if it's true or not,
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but, you know, people- people will
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willingly, um,
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lose their lives rather than lose the
respect of their- their peers,
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right?
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Mm-hmm.
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And in this case,
we might lose the entire world out of some
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foolish...
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It's like, I- I- I wonder why people
are so concerned about the respect
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of others. It makes me wonder.
It seems that
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it-
it's a reflection of a certain self-doubt.
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At any rate, it- it's-
it doesn't stop me from doing what
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I'm doing. Um,
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and this is, uh, uh, there's an inter-
an interesting point that you brought up.
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So people in San Francisco,
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it's a-
it's a metropolitan area of almost eight
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Mm-hmm.
13:53.534 --> 13:55.284
Um, it's very hard to generalize, right?
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Yeah.
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So there are many people in San Francisco
who
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recognize that
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this AI race is a race to annihilation,
and they have no- they
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want nothing to do with it, right?
The important thing, I mean,
14:12.024 --> 14:15.644
street, I- I've talked to, I don't know,
hundreds, thousands of
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people. Many of them-
many of them immediately say, "Oh yes,
14:19.424 --> 14:22.784
thing. Yeah, they're gonna-
they're gonna end up killing us all." Many
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understand this. It's- it's not like, um,
14:25.704 --> 14:28.004
some, uh, esoteric
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idea. Um, the important thing
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is not to
14:34.524 --> 14:34.784
act
14:35.884 --> 14:39.684
based on the expectations of others
but to do what is right, to do
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what's necessary,
and to find other people and
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encourage them to do what's right
and necessary.
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And that's what, uh, you know, this is-
there's
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a- there's a saying that all-
all truth goes through several
14:54.744 --> 14:58.654
stages. First it's ridiculed,
then it's opposed, and finally
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it's- it's accepted as self-evident,
right?
15:01.584 --> 15:02.084
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
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So there's always going to be this kind of
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opposition, but this is not actually about
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necessarily even responding.
15:16.724 --> 15:19.124
The primary thing at least
is not responding to the opposition.
15:19.144 --> 15:22.804
The primary thing is doing what
is correct and-
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Mm-hmm.
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... with the understanding
that we have that this race puts
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our lives in danger.
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That's enough. E- even certainty is not
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necessary. You wouldn't-
I wouldn't let anyone play Russian
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children, right? And this
is just a risk of death.
15:42.384 --> 15:45.784
We're talking about risk of destroying the
entire world, right?
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We have rights. We have a right to life,
and we
15:49.904 --> 15:53.884
have a right to live unafraid
that someone's gonna
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destroy the world. So we need to
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stand on those rights
and defend them because we're actually
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up for each other, right?
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It's not just our rights we're standing up
for.
16:07.424 --> 16:11.384
We can only have these-
we only benefit individually from these
16:11.404 --> 16:14.844
rights if we're willing to defend them
collectively, because
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individually we can't-
we can't defend them.
16:18.144 --> 16:22.024
And so this is- this is the thing which,
uh, trying to help, um,
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people to do.
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Got it. Got it. That makes sense,
and I am completely supportive of your
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efforts. Uh,
maybe then the next thing I wanted to
16:31.764 --> 16:35.044
ask is, you know, like,
how do we actually, you know,
16:35.064 --> 16:37.223
How do we build this into a social
movement?
16:37.324 --> 16:37.704
Uh,
16:38.984 --> 16:42.834
so one thing you actually previously
talked to me about, you know, in private,
16:42.864 --> 16:46.604
but I also wondered if they, you know, be,
uh, out there in public, which is you
16:46.644 --> 16:50.504
said, like, in order to get more people,
you know, in the movement, you
16:50.544 --> 16:54.004
know, against AI, you know,
to be actually protesting,
16:54.064 --> 16:57.524
something about it, uh, you said what
is important is
16:57.684 --> 17:01.424
not, "Okay,
here's a list of technical arguments for,
17:01.484 --> 17:03.844
risk," but what is actually needed is,
like, courage.
17:03.884 --> 17:06.964
It's, like, seeing, you know,
your friends and people around you,
17:07.003 --> 17:10.824
actually demonstrating that courage
and actually, you know,
17:10.924 --> 17:14.863
Uh, like,
that intuitively seemed to make a lot of
17:14.944 --> 17:18.904
sense to me. Uh,
I just wanted to sort of get more of your
17:18.924 --> 17:21.604
Like, why do you believe this is true?
17:21.664 --> 17:25.404
Do you have some existing examples of
this, you know, either in the AI or AI
17:25.424 --> 17:28.144
risk space or, you know,
even outside of it?
17:28.184 --> 17:30.084
Yeah.
17:30.144 --> 17:33.524
No, I- I mean I think this
is absolutely essential,
17:33.624 --> 17:36.264
right? I mean, it's not the wh-
it's not the whole thing.
17:36.304 --> 17:36.774
There are many
17:37.664 --> 17:40.624
interlocking pieces, uh, eh, in-
among which
17:42.024 --> 17:45.004
the technical arguments, the awareness
17:46.304 --> 17:48.084
also contribute, right?
17:48.764 --> 17:51.884
But, um,
17:54.244 --> 17:57.964
what in-
in my estimation has heretofore been
17:58.004 --> 18:01.304
lacking has been a willingness to act
18:02.204 --> 18:04.904
consistently with the meaning of an
18:04.924 --> 18:08.384
emergency. Even a- a willingness to
18:08.424 --> 18:12.384
acknowledge that there
is an emergency on the part of people who
18:12.424 --> 18:13.644
traditionally been concerned
18:14.584 --> 18:18.318
and aware of the threat that-...
18:18.328 --> 18:19.048
AI poses
18:20.288 --> 18:23.068
with regards to extinction.
18:24.267 --> 18:24.588
And
18:27.808 --> 18:29.628
there is a lot of, um,
18:31.227 --> 18:33.967
there's kind of a spirit of uncertainty,
18:34.048 --> 18:36.507
fear, doubt,
18:36.568 --> 18:39.628
self-doubt, and all of this is
18:41.408 --> 18:43.467
totally
18:44.368 --> 18:44.707
fatal
18:45.868 --> 18:49.207
to the creation of a vital en- engaged
18:49.267 --> 18:51.588
movement, right?
18:52.928 --> 18:56.747
We potentially have very little time in
which to
18:56.788 --> 19:00.447
accomplish a very large goal, which is
19:00.548 --> 19:03.808
moving the entire world out of the path
19:03.947 --> 19:07.467
of this extremely dangerous technology
it's on course
19:07.528 --> 19:10.578
to, to build. And
19:13.528 --> 19:14.888
I have seen the failure of
19:16.408 --> 19:17.967
reformist projects on
19:18.967 --> 19:22.088
social issues for 40 years,
on climate change, for example,
19:23.328 --> 19:26.467
with the result that now very devastating,
even catastrophic
19:26.848 --> 19:30.717
effects are essentially locked in.
19:30.768 --> 19:34.598
We don't have 40 years to fail on climate
change, uh,
19:34.648 --> 19:38.027
on, on AI.
We don't have 40 years to fail on
19:38.088 --> 19:40.098
AI. And
19:42.308 --> 19:44.447
we need to act
19:45.908 --> 19:49.828
decisively. If a m- if a, if a man
19:49.868 --> 19:53.648
is putting my life in danger
and the lives of my children, I'm not
19:53.658 --> 19:57.007
satisfied merely to ask him to stop
19:57.928 --> 20:01.908
or to ask the government to stop
and wait and wait
20:03.447 --> 20:05.868
and wait for a response
that may not ever come.
20:05.888 --> 20:07.178
Got it. I-
20:07.178 --> 20:09.687
It's our responsibility to take
leadership.
20:09.697 --> 20:12.997
...
thing doesn't look very good right at the
20:12.997 --> 20:16.888
To take direct action.
We have the right to end this threat
20:16.987 --> 20:19.467
today, right now.
20:20.428 --> 20:21.308
This is our right.
20:22.707 --> 20:26.467
And the only way
that it's going to possibly be done is by
20:26.507 --> 20:27.627
beginning to act
20:28.627 --> 20:30.137
with courage, with conviction
20:31.568 --> 20:35.487
on that, on that right,
to take direct non-violent action
20:36.388 --> 20:36.987
to stop
20:38.727 --> 20:42.687
the development towards superintelligence,
to ta- which could, is
20:42.727 --> 20:43.507
as simple as
20:45.507 --> 20:48.668
non-violently occupying the companies
that are doing
20:48.707 --> 20:52.608
it, to lead government,
because government is
20:52.687 --> 20:53.868
not leading on this.
20:56.447 --> 20:59.888
Go,
the responsibility for our safety
20:59.928 --> 21:03.467
government, but they are abdicating
that responsibility.
21:05.148 --> 21:09.027
Where does the responsibility go?
It doesn't vanish. It's on us still.
21:09.048 --> 21:13.027
It always was on us.
We delegated it to government,
21:13.068 --> 21:16.227
job. It's our responsibility to lead
21:16.368 --> 21:20.108
government, to occupy the offices of
21:20.168 --> 21:22.007
Congress if necessary-
21:23.308 --> 21:23.318
We do.
21:23.318 --> 21:24.668
... to compel them to act.
21:25.648 --> 21:28.467
And we can do this. This is,
this has been done by
21:29.687 --> 21:33.447
th-
this has been done by social movements
21:33.487 --> 21:34.628
over again.
21:35.668 --> 21:35.987
And
21:38.268 --> 21:40.808
I'm, I'm inspired particularly by this.
21:42.348 --> 21:46.247
There is a,
an episode in the civil rights movement in
21:46.288 --> 21:49.027
the Birmingham campaign,
21:50.027 --> 21:50.338
where
21:52.048 --> 21:53.368
5,000 school children
21:54.348 --> 21:54.987
went to jail
21:55.888 --> 21:58.638
for defying the segregation laws in
Birmingham,
21:58.668 --> 22:00.568
Alabama.
22:03.987 --> 22:04.027
Yeah.
22:04.048 --> 22:06.888
They filled every jail in Birmingham,
they filled the state
22:07.707 --> 22:10.987
fair, the animal pens where they,
they held animals at the state
22:11.048 --> 22:12.768
fair,
22:13.808 --> 22:15.928
and this happened over several weeks.
22:15.947 --> 22:19.608
And by the end of it,
the chief of police threw his hands in the
22:19.648 --> 22:23.467
said,
"There's no way to keep a lid on this
22:23.527 --> 22:24.207
gone."
22:25.027 --> 22:28.928
This is when radical political change
happens, when people
22:28.937 --> 22:29.768
lose their fear
22:31.288 --> 22:35.128
and they're willing to act. For me,
I'm acting out of love
22:35.308 --> 22:39.148
for my children. If I f- if I have to
22:39.187 --> 22:42.408
face the choice between going on hunger
strike
22:45.248 --> 22:48.348
and raising awareness on this issue
and mobilizing people to
22:48.358 --> 22:52.187
action or sitting back and,
and living a comfortable
22:52.248 --> 22:56.027
life and letting my children's lives be
threatened, I'll take the first
22:56.088 --> 22:59.878
one any day of the week.
I've been arrested a couple of
22:59.928 --> 23:03.128
times. I'm willing to go to jail.
23:04.207 --> 23:08.047
I'm willing, you know,
to do whatever it non-violently takes to
23:08.088 --> 23:11.388
my children are safe,
because in my mind there's nothing more
23:11.428 --> 23:13.328
important.
23:13.727 --> 23:14.068
Yeah.
23:14.078 --> 23:17.808
And when people, when people tap into
that love, the
23:17.888 --> 23:19.368
fear of, of sanction
23:21.527 --> 23:24.568
becomes much less effective in
constraining our
23:24.608 --> 23:26.257
behavior.
23:26.257 --> 23:26.257
Yeah.
23:26.328 --> 23:30.138
I'm sure that many of the people that
are concerned about this, if
23:30.168 --> 23:33.428
the, if they, if they knew that simply by
23:35.348 --> 23:38.947
sitting down in front of the AI companies
they would stop this race, many would
23:38.987 --> 23:41.868
take that. It's the right thing to do.
23:41.908 --> 23:44.568
The only reason they don't
is because they don't think it's going to
23:44.628 --> 23:46.418
work.
23:48.388 --> 23:52.277
And what we need for people to do
is to center less on what they think
23:52.308 --> 23:55.848
to work and more on what
is right for them to
23:55.908 --> 23:56.957
do, because
23:58.687 --> 24:01.868
paradoxically that's why it hasn't
24:01.928 --> 24:05.788
happened.
That's why we haven't stopped this race,
24:05.848 --> 24:09.768
have not en mass led society
24:09.808 --> 24:13.067
and said, "This thing is wrong
and it needs to stop."
24:13.187 --> 24:13.447
Yeah.
24:14.908 --> 24:17.428
Got it, got it. No, that is a good answer.
24:17.547 --> 24:21.328
Uh, I wanted to ask you, uh, so there
are multiple
24:21.547 --> 24:23.027
groups that are trying to do...
24:23.248 --> 24:26.947
... you know,
public advocacy around the idea of
24:27.008 --> 24:30.437
risk from superintelligence. Uh,
this could include starting with, you
24:30.488 --> 24:34.268
know, uh, Mary's latest book, you know,
Eliezer Yudkowsky and Nate Sawyer
24:34.368 --> 24:38.008
is, they published this book, you know,
If Anyone Mutes It, Everyone Dies.
24:38.088 --> 24:41.268
Uh, there is pause AI which
was started by,
24:41.288 --> 24:44.428
uh, Meandetsma and Holly
24:44.628 --> 24:48.508
Elmore. Uh, there's, you know,
the AI Risk Network by John Sherman.
24:48.568 --> 24:52.488
There's, you know,
Liron Shapira who has his own channel
24:52.548 --> 24:55.888
debates. Like, there
are lots of people who
24:55.928 --> 24:59.888
need to go to the public. Uh,
but I get the sense that they're all
24:59.947 --> 25:03.528
working independently. Uh,
so maybe I just wanted to ask you, like,
25:03.628 --> 25:07.466
A, what is something you think like,
you know, all these public advocacy groups
25:07.528 --> 25:10.338
agree on, and B, what is, you know,
something...
25:10.348 --> 25:14.288
or what other things they disagree on?
25:16.588 --> 25:20.508
Yeah. That's a good question.
I'm not terribly familiar with what
25:20.528 --> 25:23.707
e- ev- every other group is doing.
I can speak
25:23.748 --> 25:27.138
primarily, uh, for myself, what I'm doing,
and
25:27.168 --> 25:30.808
the, the, the work
that I've done in support of Stop
25:30.868 --> 25:32.488
AI. Um,
25:33.748 --> 25:37.628
in terms of goals, there is, um...
I think there is a
25:37.708 --> 25:40.028
common- a commonality in that
25:40.947 --> 25:42.488
I believe all of these groups
25:43.828 --> 25:45.528
would agree that
25:47.228 --> 25:50.068
the race which is going on now to build
superintelligence
25:50.348 --> 25:54.187
is...
poses an extreme threat to all of our
25:55.368 --> 25:59.268
safety and wellbeing and our lives,
and should
26:00.467 --> 26:02.728
stop now.
26:04.888 --> 26:07.947
I don't think that's... I don't think
that would be controversial
26:08.748 --> 26:11.048
(laughs) among any of those groups.
26:11.148 --> 26:15.088
Um, the primary difference
26:15.098 --> 26:17.628
that I see, there are
26:17.748 --> 26:21.628
two. One is kind of in
26:21.687 --> 26:22.368
the goals,
26:23.668 --> 26:26.918
the ultimate goals of those groups, and
26:27.687 --> 26:30.788
one is in the methods which they see
26:30.928 --> 26:31.947
as,
26:32.748 --> 26:34.548
uh, necessary or
26:35.548 --> 26:39.528
effective. Um, in terms of goals, I'd say
26:39.588 --> 26:40.868
that there is a clear
26:41.708 --> 26:45.077
distinction between Stop AI
and the other groups which is
26:45.108 --> 26:48.528
that the core
26:48.588 --> 26:51.788
founding principle of Stop AI is that
26:51.828 --> 26:55.467
superintelligence is inherently
26:55.568 --> 26:58.668
too dangerous of a technology ever to be
26:58.687 --> 27:02.608
built. This is not, um... this is in
27:02.687 --> 27:06.648
contrast to the position of, for example,
pause AI which says
27:07.248 --> 27:10.428
it should not be built until it can be
done safely.
27:11.808 --> 27:15.748
And from Stop AI's position,
27:15.828 --> 27:16.447
there is
27:18.208 --> 27:22.168
no- It's in-
it's inherently a contradiction in terms.
27:22.228 --> 27:25.508
This technology cannot ever be done safely
27:26.428 --> 27:30.388
because unlike o-
every other technology we've deployed,
27:30.428 --> 27:31.368
been able to test
27:31.828 --> 27:35.668
repeatedly... prototypes
27:37.048 --> 27:40.808
and refine and iterate through
engineering.
27:40.848 --> 27:41.118
And
27:41.967 --> 27:45.947
with superintelligence, there
is the very real risk that you don't get a
27:45.988 --> 27:49.467
second chance. If you build a system
which is
27:49.608 --> 27:51.708
capable enough to take
27:52.548 --> 27:54.668
control of the world and humanity's
27:54.708 --> 27:58.357
fate, you may not get a second chance
27:58.648 --> 28:02.108
at...
you may not get a chance to shut that off,
28:02.168 --> 28:04.408
You may have just locked yourself into
28:05.308 --> 28:07.788
inevitable loss of control. And
28:10.687 --> 28:13.388
I don't trust any theory which
28:14.608 --> 28:17.588
gives predictions about the behavior of a
system like this.
28:17.608 --> 28:21.528
It's not enough to have theory.
It must be tested through
28:21.568 --> 28:23.628
experiment. And this is just not
28:24.967 --> 28:28.808
a regime,
the creation of superintelligence,
28:29.348 --> 28:32.108
experimentation. Um,
28:33.268 --> 28:37.187
you know, we... there are airplanes
28:37.228 --> 28:39.588
that leave the ground based on theory
28:40.467 --> 28:43.487
and there are people
that get in those airplanes,
28:43.588 --> 28:47.538
pilots. I'm not willing for my
28:47.588 --> 28:50.148
family, against our
28:50.188 --> 28:53.428
will, to be the test subjects
28:54.208 --> 28:58.078
of the AI company's superintelligence
experiments, and I
28:58.108 --> 29:02.098
don't think anyone should. So,
that's primarily the difference in goals.
29:02.128 --> 29:05.578
There is a s- a-
an ultimate goal of stopping
29:05.578 --> 29:09.418
superintelligence permanently,
which means creating a world in
29:09.467 --> 29:13.328
which it is possible to do so
indefinitely, that we have the
29:13.338 --> 29:15.228
social institutions, the
29:16.268 --> 29:20.197
relations among people which no longer
29:20.248 --> 29:23.728
produce this race and this unstoppable
29:23.788 --> 29:26.248
drive to build ever more powerful AI
29:26.288 --> 29:30.108
systems. And in terms of how, how we stop
29:30.148 --> 29:33.928
that race, like in the near term, there
is also like a- a strategic difference
29:34.467 --> 29:34.828
in that
29:36.447 --> 29:40.338
I personally, and it's generally the, the
29:41.428 --> 29:43.318
approach of Stop AI, that
29:45.388 --> 29:48.008
the urgency of this situation demands
direct
29:48.048 --> 29:49.467
action,
29:51.268 --> 29:52.308
that the
29:53.228 --> 29:56.508
institution, the... It's a- it's a-
it's an estimation that the
29:56.568 --> 30:00.348
institutions of government and of economy,
that the
30:00.388 --> 30:02.498
rules of the system as they are set up now
30:05.388 --> 30:09.148
will produce,
with overwhelming likelihood,
30:09.248 --> 30:12.638
um, the bad outcome here. And that
30:14.388 --> 30:16.378
there is a phenomenon in social...
30:16.428 --> 30:20.208
in, in this- in the history of,
of world society which is able to
30:20.228 --> 30:23.128
produce very rapid changes in government
30:23.168 --> 30:27.043
policy.And in fact,
it does so about every two or three
30:27.063 --> 30:30.873
years somewhere in the world. And this
is mass parta- participation
30:30.984 --> 30:34.464
civil disobedience. This is when people en
30:34.533 --> 30:38.244
masse, in large numbers, refuse to
30:38.323 --> 30:41.303
allow society to continue as
30:41.343 --> 30:45.283
normal until their demand is met. And
30:45.363 --> 30:49.184
sometimes this is a, a,
a demand for a change in the law,
30:49.204 --> 30:51.573
demand for a change in the government.
30:51.603 --> 30:54.623
And like I said,
a movement like this succeeds in achieving
30:54.644 --> 30:58.323
in the world about every two
or three years. This is a f-...
30:58.333 --> 31:02.184
This is not a one-off thing. It
is a social phenomenon,
31:02.224 --> 31:02.543
which is
31:03.684 --> 31:06.323
nearly... It was essentially universal.
31:06.404 --> 31:10.303
It's...
It is a way for societies to rapidly
31:10.343 --> 31:14.264
change direction under extreme duress,
which we
31:14.363 --> 31:15.934
are in now, and which
31:16.904 --> 31:19.823
we are increasingly approaching,
31:19.924 --> 31:23.603
right? So- so this is the approach
31:23.684 --> 31:27.004
which StopAI has chosen. It
is to take direct
31:27.103 --> 31:30.704
action as the catalyst and as the motive
31:30.764 --> 31:34.033
force of building an assertive, vital
31:34.464 --> 31:38.363
social movement, which
is not content to go
31:38.384 --> 31:40.884
the reformist route and
31:42.123 --> 31:42.643
parlay
31:45.664 --> 31:48.783
potentially decades of time
that we don't have.
31:48.803 --> 31:49.464
Yeah.
31:49.504 --> 31:52.343
Right. So sometimes you,
you have to go outside the box.
31:52.363 --> 31:55.343
You have to break the rules. That's okay,
right?
31:55.464 --> 31:59.083
Uh, you know, I'm,
I'm going to court this, uh, next month
31:59.643 --> 32:03.404
in a case where I obstructed the operation
of
32:03.464 --> 32:07.224
OpenAI,
which is one of the leading companies
32:08.004 --> 32:08.283
And
32:09.384 --> 32:13.283
we're asserting and defending this right
of the public to take
32:13.323 --> 32:17.164
this kind of action, that it's... We
are asserting that it
32:17.204 --> 32:20.893
that it is morally justified. And there
is this
32:20.944 --> 32:24.474
concept in law called the defense of
necessity.
32:24.524 --> 32:24.853
This is
32:26.303 --> 32:27.373
an idea that goes back
32:29.724 --> 32:33.333
probably thousands of years.
I'm sure there's something like it in, in,
32:34.143 --> 32:37.504
legal systems around the world.
It's the understanding that sometimes it's
32:37.514 --> 32:40.053
necessary to break some laws for...
32:40.083 --> 32:43.103
To prevent a greater harm. Um, just
32:43.184 --> 32:46.063
like you would break the window of a,
of a car
32:47.004 --> 32:48.823
to rescue a child trapped inside,
32:49.724 --> 32:53.264
right?
There's no other alternative to save
32:53.904 --> 32:54.333
Yeah.
32:54.504 --> 32:56.803
That's the case we're in right now.
32:58.143 --> 33:01.184
We don't know how close these companies
33:01.283 --> 33:04.793
are from the next breakthrough, right?
33:04.803 --> 33:08.704
Remember,
it was one big breakthrough in 2017
33:08.724 --> 33:10.684
the field, the transformer.
33:10.694 --> 33:10.694
Mm-hmm.
33:10.744 --> 33:13.934
Right now, there are hundreds, you know,
hundreds of billions of dollars and
33:14.004 --> 33:15.592
thousands of the world's best engineers
33:16.563 --> 33:18.434
trying to make that next breakthrough.
33:18.484 --> 33:21.704
We don't know how, how close it is.
And this
33:21.764 --> 33:25.634
uncertainty should not be cause for
inaction.
33:25.643 --> 33:29.524
It should be cause for preventative,
precautionary action,
33:29.563 --> 33:32.924
because the consequences are so large,
right?
33:32.984 --> 33:33.853
Yeah, yeah, go ahead.
33:33.863 --> 33:34.524
So, yeah.
33:34.623 --> 33:37.293
Uh, yeah, I'm really sorry. I, I just,
I just don't have-
33:37.303 --> 33:38.984
No, no worries. Go ahead. Do your,
do your thing.
33:38.994 --> 33:41.583
No, no, I get it. You're...
Everything you're saying
33:41.684 --> 33:45.504
Uh,
I wanted to dive more specifically into
33:45.603 --> 33:49.024
disagreement, uh, because, you know,
I think it seems useful to actually
33:49.603 --> 33:51.524
get people on board, you know,
doing things.
33:51.623 --> 33:55.603
Uh,
so the specific argument you mentioned,
33:55.623 --> 33:59.004
you know, we don't get, you know,
like 50 tries to build superintelligence.
33:59.043 --> 34:02.063
You know, the first time you do it,
if you do it wrong, you know,
34:02.083 --> 34:06.073
Like,
you can't really experiment with this and,
34:06.083 --> 34:10.004
over many years. Like, this
is a pretty popular argument
34:10.083 --> 34:13.844
by Eliezer Yudkowsky.
I think he's also completely on board with
34:13.884 --> 34:17.804
this specific argument, uh, that,
you know, we can't experiment
34:17.844 --> 34:21.444
with it. You know, we
are not going to solve, you know, safety
34:21.504 --> 34:25.344
alignment in, you know, five years,
10 years, probably in 20 years.
34:25.464 --> 34:29.043
Uh, maybe I would just ask, like, uh, how
34:29.163 --> 34:33.103
familiar are you with, you know,
Eliezer Yudkowsky's views
34:33.123 --> 34:36.993
on this issue, uh, considering, of course,
that he's one of the founders of, you
34:37.043 --> 34:40.933
know, AI risk as a field? And, yeah, I
34:41.004 --> 34:44.543
mean, like, where exact... Like, since,
you know, he actually
34:44.603 --> 34:48.424
agrees with you on this core point, like,
does that mean you both just,
34:48.444 --> 34:52.183
like, agree on everything? Like,
where exactly is the disagreement coming?
34:52.223 --> 34:55.964
You know, why is, you know,
Yudkowsky not sitting on a hunger strike
34:56.043 --> 34:58.464
like, you know, you are?
34:59.783 --> 35:03.054
Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. Um, I-
I'm not terri...
35:03.054 --> 35:06.524
Uh, I'm honestly,
I'm not terribly familiar with, uh,
35:06.644 --> 35:10.144
uh, Eliezer Yudkowsky's, um, uh,
35:10.264 --> 35:14.134
work. Um, I don't think I've... I may,
I've read maybe a, a
35:14.183 --> 35:16.564
couple of papers or something. Um,
35:18.144 --> 35:21.084
so I'm not really sure what his position
is.
35:21.144 --> 35:24.904
There are some things
that he's said publicly that I do disagree
35:24.964 --> 35:27.524
with and, uh,
35:29.104 --> 35:32.964
I think, um, I think I disagree on others,
but I'm
35:33.004 --> 35:35.493
not, I'm not sure. So,
35:38.084 --> 35:41.944
I'm not sure where he stands on this issue
of alignment
35:42.004 --> 35:45.194
or safety. It seems, it seems to be...
35:45.243 --> 35:49.104
Like, what I'm... My position, you know,
is that this
35:49.163 --> 35:53.104
should never be done. And it must,
it must never
35:53.203 --> 35:56.604
be done,
and we have an obligation to not do it,
35:56.703 --> 35:59.264
stop the people that are doing it.
35:59.364 --> 36:00.834
Mm-hmm.
36:00.834 --> 36:03.984
Um, which s-
seems in contradiction to the idea
36:04.044 --> 36:07.384
that one can align a superintelligence
36:09.783 --> 36:13.723
a priori, right? By, by, by ex- by theory.
36:13.743 --> 36:14.604
Mm-hmm.
36:14.703 --> 36:16.624
Also, the, the alignment of,
36:17.484 --> 36:20.644
of such a system is deeply problematic in
terms
36:20.723 --> 36:21.654
of,
36:21.764 --> 36:25.816
um...What
36:25.856 --> 36:29.516
goals is it being pointed to? Also, the
36:29.576 --> 36:33.386
idea that such a s- the idea that such a,
a
36:33.516 --> 36:37.376
capable, self-reflecting,
self-improving system,
36:37.476 --> 36:37.756
um,
36:39.776 --> 36:43.616
s- would,
would be faithful to any goal which
36:43.676 --> 36:45.556
is externally,
36:46.996 --> 36:50.696
uh, imposed or structured into it seems
36:51.316 --> 36:52.556
also very suspect.
36:53.596 --> 36:57.236
So I- I- I believe that the- the
36:57.316 --> 37:01.176
concept of alignment in itself is very,
37:01.276 --> 37:02.766
um, misleading
37:03.796 --> 37:06.636
in the sense that it may serve the
function of
37:07.936 --> 37:10.856
causing people to be less concerned
37:11.696 --> 37:15.076
about the development of super
intelligence.
37:15.176 --> 37:19.136
That there's-
there's a natural human tendency to-
37:19.316 --> 37:22.776
want to have to exert one's self
37:22.836 --> 37:26.696
beyond one's normal affairs. And if people
37:27.156 --> 37:30.896
can feel that this problem's being solved
for them by
37:30.956 --> 37:31.536
someone else,
37:32.536 --> 37:35.276
it's a very reassuring kind of, um,
37:36.376 --> 37:38.976
story to tell oneself, which excuses
37:40.016 --> 37:40.756
taking action
37:42.356 --> 37:44.696
yourself to stop it.
37:44.796 --> 37:47.536
So, um,
37:49.236 --> 37:53.126
I think there's- there's also the-
there's also, um,
37:54.276 --> 37:54.336
a, um
37:55.216 --> 37:59.156
...
something that's come to my attention
37:59.936 --> 38:01.376
by, uh,
38:02.436 --> 38:06.296
Yudkowsky about the value,
the relative value of
38:06.336 --> 38:08.276
human life and
38:10.156 --> 38:13.556
putative, um,
38:15.716 --> 38:16.776
super intelligences,
38:18.576 --> 38:21.666
which is that the sacrifice of the
existence of humanity
38:22.516 --> 38:22.996
would be
38:24.316 --> 38:24.916
acceptable
38:26.256 --> 38:28.396
in order to bring into existence
38:29.516 --> 38:32.496
a more morally valuable super
38:32.536 --> 38:34.776
intelligence, which
38:36.436 --> 38:39.056
I categorically, fundamentally disagree
38:39.096 --> 38:42.276
with. Um,
38:43.976 --> 38:44.296
and
38:46.516 --> 38:50.336
... I don't think this ever can
38:50.476 --> 38:54.296
be or should be done safely. And this
38:54.356 --> 38:55.586
is- this is- this is,
38:56.876 --> 39:00.736
like, a f- this is a-
a fundamental motivation for the work
39:00.796 --> 39:04.656
that I do. As- as to
39:04.696 --> 39:07.556
why, uh, Yudkowsky
is not on hunger strike.
39:07.596 --> 39:11.456
That's a good question.
People can find many different reasons not
39:11.525 --> 39:15.436
do things. Anyways, was that good or
was there any part you,
39:15.676 --> 39:16.196
uh, wanna cover more?
39:16.206 --> 39:20.016
No, that is a really good answer. Uh,
maybe I
39:20.056 --> 39:23.896
should put it this way. Uh, so ha-
I'm assuming you've seen,
39:23.936 --> 39:27.025
like, the statement by, you know,
Center for AI Safety, Dan Hendricks,
39:27.036 --> 39:30.996
like, uh,
mitigating risk of extinction of AI
39:31.096 --> 39:33.936
and it was signed by, you know,
a whole number of people.
39:33.946 --> 39:37.886
And I think that has actually, you know,
moved- pushed the movement
39:37.996 --> 39:41.516
forward in, like,
bringing this consensus that, okay, look,
39:41.576 --> 39:44.936
know, high credentialed, important,
you know, knowledgeable people actually do
39:44.996 --> 39:48.986
agree with this. I wonder
if there's value in doing a similar
39:49.056 --> 39:52.736
statement, you know, just even among the,
let's say, groups who are protesting
39:52.776 --> 39:56.656
right now or involved in public advocacy
that, you know,
39:56.696 --> 40:00.016
look, here is a core statement that,
you know, we all do agree on.
40:00.036 --> 40:02.776
Like, you know, we might have, you know,
certain various disagreements of our own,
40:02.796 --> 40:06.716
and you know, that's fine,
but can we at least, you know, like,
40:06.736 --> 40:09.676
some consensus-building. Like, you know,
here is a statement that we all agree on.
40:09.696 --> 40:13.655
Like, do you think s- like,
such a statement, you know,
40:13.706 --> 40:15.836
Do you have opinions on, you know,
what the exact statement should
40:15.896 --> 40:18.356
be?
40:19.676 --> 40:20.226
Um ...
40:23.876 --> 40:24.296
hm.
40:25.916 --> 40:29.906
Maybe could be valuable. Um, I think the-
the first
40:29.936 --> 40:33.796
statement was very valuable in the sense
that it provided a reference
40:33.836 --> 40:37.656
point for the public. It, um,
and provides,
40:37.716 --> 40:40.556
right? It's- it's very-
40:41.836 --> 40:45.716
it's very useful if you're-
when you're mobilizing people to take
40:45.756 --> 40:49.716
to something like that and show
that there are,
40:49.756 --> 40:51.616
you know, respected, credentialed
40:52.436 --> 40:56.316
authorities who accept this as
40:56.456 --> 41:00.436
a- as a real risk. And this is,
for me at least, this is the
41:00.476 --> 41:03.426
primary value in a statement like that.
41:03.476 --> 41:03.996
It's that
41:04.936 --> 41:08.896
it enables and it facilitates public
outreach.
41:09.016 --> 41:09.286
Um,
41:11.236 --> 41:13.896
uh, a similar statement, g- getting,
41:14.916 --> 41:18.876
uh, all these groups on board, uh, I-
I don't
41:18.916 --> 41:22.476
think it could hurt per se. Um, except
41:22.656 --> 41:26.576
insofar that it- if it- if
41:26.636 --> 41:26.686
it
41:27.776 --> 41:30.636
obfuscates the- the larger issue of
41:31.856 --> 41:33.596
...
41:36.356 --> 41:39.896
for example, Stop AI w-
does not want to give the
41:39.916 --> 41:43.736
impression that it agrees
that super intelligence can ever be
41:43.776 --> 41:47.536
built safely, which
is the stated position of a lot of
41:47.576 --> 41:51.556
other- these other groups.
I think we all can agree that the-
41:53.256 --> 41:56.896
should end now, and the difference is
that I think Stop
41:56.956 --> 41:57.336
AI
41:58.536 --> 42:01.986
acts as though it must end now, and we're
42:02.016 --> 42:05.996
encouraging other people to- to take
that action, because if
42:06.056 --> 42:09.356
it must end now and if the companies are
42:09.376 --> 42:12.996
not ending it and the government's not
ending it, then we
42:13.116 --> 42:16.396
must act, and this is the- this
is the core thing.
42:16.416 --> 42:19.916
It's simply not enough to write a letter
to
42:19.956 --> 42:23.836
your representative
or to call your representative
42:24.576 --> 42:28.506
and another day goes by
and we get closer
42:28.516 --> 42:31.706
we get closer to this point of no return
where we don't know where it
42:31.776 --> 42:35.638
is. We-People who understand this risk,
and this
42:35.688 --> 42:37.677
is- goes for the authorities
that signed that letter,
42:39.208 --> 42:43.188
what would be much more useful
is for them to go
42:43.228 --> 42:45.068
farther in that sa- in that letter.
42:45.128 --> 42:48.807
Rather than saying it
is merely a risk that should
42:50.868 --> 42:54.638
merit some precaution, to actually state,
42:54.638 --> 42:57.368
"We are now, given the circumstances,
in an
42:57.388 --> 43:01.258
emergency." And to even go farther, that,
43:01.288 --> 43:05.108
to say that, "Given the ina-
inaction by our
43:05.148 --> 43:09.038
government, non-violent direct action
is necessary and
43:09.048 --> 43:12.718
justified," this would be incredibly
useful in mobilizing
43:12.748 --> 43:16.688
people. And this is,
from my point of view, the only real
43:16.748 --> 43:20.448
game in town.
There's not going to be the political will
43:20.508 --> 43:24.158
mobilized, strident movement making
43:24.168 --> 43:26.488
demands for an immediate end to this
43:26.508 --> 43:30.268
race. And from my point of view,
the most important thing
43:30.328 --> 43:33.268
is what actually assists
43:33.368 --> 43:35.288
in creating that
43:35.328 --> 43:37.968
movement.
43:38.148 --> 43:40.588
Got it. Got it, got it. That makes sense.
43:40.688 --> 43:44.108
Uh, yeah,
I think I then wanted to move to a
43:44.148 --> 43:48.108
question, uh, which is, again,
coming back to, you know,
43:48.148 --> 43:52.028
the movement?
I wanted to ask about funding
43:52.048 --> 43:54.688
So, like, you know, this
is something I can imagine, and, you know,
43:54.728 --> 43:55.608
or disagree, but,
43:56.868 --> 44:00.428
like, uh, I can imagine a person who has,
you know, a tech
44:00.508 --> 44:03.568
job,
they broadly agree with the arguments for
44:03.628 --> 44:07.608
risk, but they're like, "You look,
you know, I have, you know, dependents.
44:07.668 --> 44:10.608
I need to make a certain amount of money
to, you know, sustain myself, to sustain
44:10.668 --> 44:14.418
people around me. And, you know,
if I just come and protest, you know,
44:14.468 --> 44:18.028
there's no money in that. You know,
it's just financially,
44:18.048 --> 44:21.948
bad for me." So,
I do think it makes sense for,
44:21.988 --> 44:25.248
like,
social movements like this to figure out a
44:25.348 --> 44:29.268
Uh, do you have a sense of, like, how
that funding can be
44:29.888 --> 44:33.228
raised? Like, would that be primarily,
you know, through donations?
44:33.268 --> 44:36.568
Could that be, you know... And by the way,
I don't have a strong opinion, you know,
44:36.588 --> 44:39.098
which of these would actually work, but,
like, I'm just asking your opinion, you
44:39.148 --> 44:42.408
know? Would that be donations? Could
that be, you know, let's say, you know,
44:42.468 --> 44:44.968
a YouTube channel and you run ads on it?
44:45.008 --> 44:48.148
Could that be, you know,
you provide consultancy to other groups,
44:48.188 --> 44:50.488
on your actual knowledge expertise you
have accumulated?
44:50.528 --> 44:54.448
Like, do you have a sense of, like,
how you could actually get
44:54.488 --> 44:56.068
funding to, you know, scale up the
44:56.108 --> 44:58.688
movement?
44:59.868 --> 45:02.888
Yeah, I have, I have a general,
a general idea.
45:02.988 --> 45:03.248
Um,
45:04.948 --> 45:05.288
like,
45:06.548 --> 45:10.128
the- this has been done in the past,
right?
45:10.888 --> 45:12.248
Um,
45:13.088 --> 45:16.528
the-
there have been many social movements in
45:16.568 --> 45:20.308
essentially member-supported.
And I think the
45:20.328 --> 45:23.577
important thing is creating a movement
which is worthy
45:24.208 --> 45:24.718
of support
45:25.768 --> 45:29.418
and which people ha-
can have confidence and
45:29.468 --> 45:29.768
faith
45:31.728 --> 45:32.548
in its ability,
45:33.508 --> 45:36.688
its potential ability,
to accomplish these goals.
45:36.708 --> 45:36.857
Okay.
45:37.368 --> 45:41.208
And so there's a, you know, there are,
there are literally
45:41.328 --> 45:44.448
millions and tens of millions of people
that are concerned about
45:45.528 --> 45:48.868
where this is all going,
and some of them are very deeply
45:48.908 --> 45:51.108
concerned. And like you said,
45:52.108 --> 45:54.357
there's two,
two sides to the example you brought up.
45:56.328 --> 45:59.748
One is, you can do a lot on a large scale
46:00.208 --> 46:01.688
if millions of people
46:02.988 --> 46:05.048
can be mobilized in support
46:06.108 --> 46:08.478
of a direct action
46:08.508 --> 46:11.638
movement. Millions of people times
46:13.208 --> 46:17.168
a dollar a month, 10 dollars a month,
is millions of dollars,
46:17.208 --> 46:19.928
tens of millions of dollars,
which can be deployed
46:20.808 --> 46:22.797
to mobilize people for direct action.
46:23.448 --> 46:25.768
So it's, in, in a very real sense,
it's a problem of
46:25.808 --> 46:29.628
logistics. My experience with Stop AI
is with a handful of
46:29.688 --> 46:33.188
organizers going out into the community
through methods of direct
46:33.268 --> 46:35.088
face-to-face mobilization,
46:36.128 --> 46:36.468
and
46:38.468 --> 46:39.288
we have found
46:40.648 --> 46:43.778
several people, right? The,
the largest action that
46:44.868 --> 46:48.728
has ever been done by Stop AI involved
five people.
46:50.548 --> 46:54.228
It's not a, it's not a large number,
but it's also the work of a very small
46:54.267 --> 46:58.068
of mobilizers. If this is systematized and
46:58.148 --> 46:58.738
organized
47:00.768 --> 47:03.878
with 100 mobilizers, I think it's very
47:04.468 --> 47:08.228
realistic to find that within society,
you will find it,
47:08.268 --> 47:12.188
100 people to take direct action.
Not everyone is gonna be
47:12.288 --> 47:16.228
like your software engineer who has, uh,
you know, such a managerial
47:16.268 --> 47:19.348
position that it's very hard for them to
47:19.408 --> 47:23.328
make a very costly sacrifice.
47:23.348 --> 47:27.008
But there are many people who
are able to do that, and it's a logistical
47:27.088 --> 47:31.028
question of finding them
and mobilizing them and showing and
47:31.068 --> 47:34.868
encouraging them to stand up for their
rights, which is what this is really, at a
47:34.908 --> 47:38.708
fundamental level, about.
There's no guarantee
47:38.748 --> 47:42.108
rights is going to be free, right?
It's often going to be very
47:42.148 --> 47:43.208
costly.
47:43.228 --> 47:43.508
Yeah.
47:43.578 --> 47:45.768
But we're also the inheritors
47:47.208 --> 47:51.148
of generations before us who made very
costly sacrifices
47:51.228 --> 47:54.728
for our freedom and our rights.
And so there's something that goes
47:54.768 --> 47:58.748
beyond the day-to-day material
calculations,
47:58.828 --> 47:59.808
right?
47:59.848 --> 48:02.418
Yep.
48:02.668 --> 48:03.958
100 people, you know,
48:04.948 --> 48:08.668
in front of OpenAI,
in front of the other AI companies pushing
48:08.948 --> 48:09.688
annihilation,
48:11.028 --> 48:14.968
would make much bigger headlines,
would have a much bigger effect in, in
48:15.448 --> 48:18.258
galvanizing public opinion, and in...
48:19.508 --> 48:23.368
Excuse the, the noise. Okay,
are you picking that
48:23.408 --> 48:24.188
up on the-
48:24.228 --> 48:24.528
Yeah, yeah-
48:24.608 --> 48:24.798
... on your end?
48:24.798 --> 48:26.508
Your voice is clear, yes.
48:26.608 --> 48:30.328
Oh, okay. Yeah,
there's some background noise. You know?
48:30.348 --> 48:34.008
But with millions of people in support,
a movement could
48:34.068 --> 48:37.692
find......
thousands of people to take direct action.
48:37.732 --> 48:41.412
This is absolutely in the realm of th-
the immediate present
48:41.432 --> 48:45.012
possibility. The conditions in society
are such, it's
48:45.092 --> 48:46.852
simply a question of
48:49.252 --> 48:52.691
interfacing with society on a large enough
surface
48:53.112 --> 48:57.092
to find those people
and organize these actions.
48:57.102 --> 48:57.422
And
48:59.432 --> 49:02.732
this can have a transformative effect in
unlocking the
49:02.752 --> 49:06.192
nonlinear potential of society to ch-
change.
49:06.252 --> 49:10.212
So for, for example, in the, in the,
in the Birmingham
49:10.252 --> 49:13.912
campaign, the Children's March
that I mentioned earlier, 5,000
49:13.952 --> 49:15.752
schoolchildren were arrested
49:16.991 --> 49:17.652
and spent
49:18.712 --> 49:22.602
some time in jail. But it changed
49:23.772 --> 49:26.752
the public perception of an entire
country.
49:26.762 --> 49:30.632
It got attention at the level of the
national government, and it
49:30.672 --> 49:33.382
led directly to the introduction of the
Civil Rights Act.
49:33.412 --> 49:36.462
It's not an understatement to say
that the Civil Rights Act of
49:36.532 --> 49:40.002
1964 was a direct consequence of those
49:40.232 --> 49:44.122
5,000 schoolchildren standing up for their
rights in 1963.
49:45.292 --> 49:48.442
And I believe that there
is similarly a tipping point in this
49:48.452 --> 49:52.132
society, because you can look at
49:52.172 --> 49:55.962
society and see that not much
is happening and then draw the conclusion
49:56.012 --> 49:59.582
that nobody is concerned. This
is not the case.
49:59.582 --> 50:00.102
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
50:00.192 --> 50:03.312
Many, many, many people
are deeply concerned.
50:03.322 --> 50:07.312
And I think you saw some evidence of this
with the recent pushback on
50:07.372 --> 50:11.072
the attempt to impose a 10-year moratorium
on AI regulation
50:11.712 --> 50:15.372
in the United States, which
was killed largely as a result of public
50:15.412 --> 50:16.491
outcry.
50:16.502 --> 50:16.502
Yeah.
50:16.552 --> 50:20.442
Even people who aren't willing,
because it's, uh,
50:20.512 --> 50:24.241
opinion, and people
are hesitant to hold minority opinions
50:24.452 --> 50:27.052
often publicly.
50:28.532 --> 50:31.392
Even young people who
are not willing to publicly acknowledge
50:32.372 --> 50:35.372
that they're worried about this extinction
50:35.412 --> 50:39.252
risk, I believe that in many, many people,
50:39.312 --> 50:43.112
maybe even most, there
is an awareness that this technology does
50:43.152 --> 50:46.032
threat. And there is a, a kind of
50:46.092 --> 50:50.002
conflict, even in people who are ve- you
50:50.052 --> 50:53.992
know,
might display the most outward bravado
50:54.032 --> 50:54.432
of it.
50:55.712 --> 50:59.491
And it's this,
these kinds of very public actions, which
50:59.592 --> 51:03.312
in mass, in a representative, you know,
that, that show a
51:03.332 --> 51:07.192
representative subsection of,
of the population being
51:07.212 --> 51:09.392
willing to take this contrarian position,
51:10.872 --> 51:14.792
because of their conviction,
which can strengthen
51:14.832 --> 51:18.761
in the heart of many, many people, to also
51:18.792 --> 51:22.112
gain the courage to say, "You know
51:22.172 --> 51:25.872
ra- you know what? I don't... This is,
this is real.
51:25.971 --> 51:29.652
I don't need to stop denying it,
and I've got a right to speak
51:29.752 --> 51:33.192
out, and I've got a right to demand
that this situation
51:33.312 --> 51:36.602
end." And so this is part of the, the
51:36.792 --> 51:40.272
mechanism of change, which
is not only theoretical.
51:40.312 --> 51:44.212
This is how social movements have changed
and do change
51:44.272 --> 51:48.192
the direction a- of entire countries,
you know, within a matter of
51:48.212 --> 51:49.252
days or weeks.
51:51.612 --> 51:53.361
So...
51:53.392 --> 51:55.932
Got it, got it, got it. That
is a good answer.
51:56.052 --> 51:58.932
Uh,
maybe then I'll just go to a really simple
51:58.952 --> 52:02.532
You know, uh, which day are you on
52:02.572 --> 52:06.072
currently? How long do you plan to,
you know, continue this hunger strike?
52:06.112 --> 52:09.162
Like,
just with the hunger strike specifically,
52:12.112 --> 52:15.032
Uh, yeah. Uh, today after I finish
52:15.852 --> 52:19.032
here, I'll be going out to Anthropic,
and it will be the 16th
52:19.152 --> 52:23.112
day which I've been publicly in front of
Anthropic.
52:23.172 --> 52:25.361
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
52:25.632 --> 52:29.511
Um, I s- I started, I-
I started fasting the day before in
52:29.552 --> 52:33.432
be 17 days that I've gone without food,
but 16 days as
52:33.492 --> 52:35.112
a public political act.
52:35.812 --> 52:35.822
Okay.
52:35.872 --> 52:36.212
And
52:37.172 --> 52:41.052
on the, on the first day
that I went there, I delivered a
52:41.092 --> 52:43.752
letter to the security desk for Mr.
52:43.792 --> 52:45.412
Amodei,
52:46.952 --> 52:50.932
telling him... asking him
52:50.971 --> 52:54.711
to stop putting my lives, my life
and the lives of my
52:54.752 --> 52:58.572
family in danger,
which he's publicly acknowledged
52:58.612 --> 53:01.922
this race does.
53:02.552 --> 53:03.552
Asking him instead
53:04.432 --> 53:06.172
to use all his power
53:07.612 --> 53:09.792
to do everything in his ability
53:11.492 --> 53:15.372
to work for a stop to this race globally,
which is
53:15.452 --> 53:19.172
the absolutely necessary condition for our
survival, a
53:19.212 --> 53:23.192
global end, through government regulation,
through international
53:23.212 --> 53:26.852
accord. And Anthropic and Mr. Amodei
53:26.892 --> 53:27.352
personally
53:29.212 --> 53:32.082
could have an immense effect in mobilizing
53:33.212 --> 53:37.092
the public will to demand such an accord.
53:38.572 --> 53:39.482
Thank you.
53:39.592 --> 53:43.402
Also,
to fulfill the obligation to ensure that
53:43.452 --> 53:46.382
society is made aware of what's going on
in these
53:46.412 --> 53:49.692
companies, to be made aware of the
53:49.732 --> 53:53.652
fact that Anthropic is
53:53.692 --> 53:56.612
contributing to this race, which poses
53:57.692 --> 54:01.132
potentially near-term risk of destruction
of our entire
54:01.172 --> 54:02.812
society.
54:04.272 --> 54:08.092
And finally,
if he's unwilling to do any of
54:08.132 --> 54:10.432
those things, to meet with me personally
54:11.452 --> 54:13.462
and explain why he feels the right
54:14.812 --> 54:18.632
to put my life, my children's lives,
our entire society at
54:18.672 --> 54:22.652
risk.
And I told him I'd be waiting outside
54:22.712 --> 54:23.192
his door
54:24.092 --> 54:26.832
for his answer, and that's my intention,
to wait
54:27.632 --> 54:28.772
outside his doors
54:29.832 --> 54:32.752
until I'm answered.
54:35.212 --> 54:41.852
And-I'm
54:41.862 --> 54:42.742
also doing this
54:44.912 --> 54:48.872
to fulfill my responsibility to my
children and the society
54:48.912 --> 54:52.872
that I'm a part of. I can't, I
54:52.932 --> 54:56.452
can't live with myself
if I let this society
54:56.532 --> 55:00.022
sleepwalk into disaster,
55:00.072 --> 55:02.412
right?
55:03.352 --> 55:07.092
I can't live with myself
if I don't do everything in
55:07.132 --> 55:07.702
my power
55:08.892 --> 55:09.492
to ensure
55:10.532 --> 55:13.791
there's a world for my children.
55:16.472 --> 55:19.932
And I think all of us
that understand this risk have a similar
55:19.972 --> 55:23.672
responsibility,
and it's up to each person to question
55:24.492 --> 55:24.792
about
55:26.612 --> 55:29.372
what they are able to do. Not what's
55:29.432 --> 55:33.392
convenient,
not what would fit into their schedule,
55:33.432 --> 55:37.332
but what's actually necessary
and what's actually right in
55:37.372 --> 55:40.212
this case.
55:42.092 --> 55:44.532
Yeah. Yeah. Got it. That is
55:45.812 --> 55:48.032
(laughs) yeah,
something even I need to think more about.
55:48.272 --> 55:51.062
I really appreciate you giving this
answer.
55:51.212 --> 55:51.932
Uh-
55:51.972 --> 55:55.352
And thank,
thank you for joining in this conversation
55:55.612 --> 55:59.332
putting, you know, a bit of your time
and convenience
56:02.792 --> 56:05.812
behind the greater, the greater good.
56:06.432 --> 56:06.622
Oh, yeah.
56:06.652 --> 56:06.892
Right?
56:06.902 --> 56:07.872
Oh, yeah.
56:08.232 --> 56:10.032
I didn't expect that, you know-
56:10.072 --> 56:10.082
Yeah.
56:10.092 --> 56:11.892
When I started this, I had no idea that
56:12.732 --> 56:16.212
this kind of response would, would happen,
and here we are having this conversation
56:16.252 --> 56:16.512
now.
56:18.312 --> 56:22.252
Oh, yes. Yes.
I completely believe with you on like,
56:22.292 --> 56:25.572
change is possible. You know,
the first domino moves,
56:25.582 --> 56:28.852
and you know, before you, you know it,
you know, thousands of people are actually
56:28.892 --> 56:32.882
doing something about it. So yes,
I just want to be part of
56:32.932 --> 56:36.772
the broader movement, the broader,
you know, effort to actually do something
56:36.832 --> 56:40.592
about this. And yeah,
I definitely relate with you
56:40.712 --> 56:44.472
on the aspect of like, look, if I was not
56:44.592 --> 56:48.372
working on this, if I was just, you know,
trying to lead a comfortable life, you
56:48.432 --> 56:52.032
know, just, you know, get a tech job,
you know, have vacations, you
56:52.092 --> 56:55.592
know, have a partner, you know,
do just fun things with my life,
56:55.632 --> 56:59.572
like,
like I would dislike myself as a person,
56:59.612 --> 57:03.052
you know?
I would be just unhappy doing that,
57:03.112 --> 57:06.032
actually done more and I chose not to,
and like that was on me.
57:06.072 --> 57:09.812
Like,
so like I actually completely resonate
57:09.872 --> 57:12.452
this sentiment of yours. Um-
57:12.472 --> 57:14.072
I mean, that was my lived experience.
57:14.132 --> 57:16.832
I, I,
there came a point where I could no longer
57:17.012 --> 57:20.852
continue, you know, setting diamonds,
which was what I was
57:20.932 --> 57:23.162
doing before, um,
57:24.052 --> 57:27.972
knowing that other people
were making these decisions
57:29.632 --> 57:32.362
that were going to have these consequences
for the people I
57:32.392 --> 57:35.892
love. That's what caused me
57:35.952 --> 57:38.042
to put this on hold and start doing
57:39.132 --> 57:41.622
what I think is necessary.
57:42.792 --> 57:46.572
Yeah. Got it. Uh,
I just wanted to then end with like a
57:46.712 --> 57:50.332
final question, uh,
just for viewers of this
57:50.372 --> 57:54.352
podcast. Like, uh, what is the, like,
very concrete, you know,
57:54.392 --> 57:57.932
call to action? Like imagine, you know,
this viewer o- of this podcast, you know,
57:58.012 --> 58:01.052
after this like they will spend, you know,
maybe 10 minutes, 15 minutes actually
58:01.072 --> 58:04.892
doing the next step. Like, uh,
what concretely would you
58:04.912 --> 58:08.372
ask them to do? Would you ask them to,
you know, go watch a lecture, you know,
58:08.412 --> 58:10.632
a book? Would you ask them to, you know,
email you?
58:10.712 --> 58:13.772
Uh,
like just what concrete action would you
58:13.852 --> 58:16.452
Uh, I would maybe split it into two.
58:16.492 --> 58:16.732
So
58:17.712 --> 58:21.472
first I would recommend maybe for viewers
who are just not really very familiar
58:21.532 --> 58:24.552
with the AI risk, you know, maybe this
is maybe one of the first videos actually
58:24.612 --> 58:28.452
about it.
And second with for people who
58:28.512 --> 58:32.492
maybe even agree,
but they're not actually n-
58:32.552 --> 58:34.832
for both sets of people,
like concretely what do you recommend?
58:34.892 --> 58:37.262
Like, after watching this video,
what do you recommend they do?
58:40.712 --> 58:44.332
So I mean, I have,
I have very clear ideas about what needs
58:44.392 --> 58:48.152
done, and what needs to be done
is the mobilization of mass
58:48.232 --> 58:50.781
participation direct action. Um,
58:52.172 --> 58:55.712
if you're not at, if-
if you're just learning about this idea
58:55.752 --> 58:59.732
about AI risk for the first time or you're
58:59.812 --> 59:03.031
not quite, you don't quite understand
or you're not quite convinced
59:03.041 --> 59:06.322
that this actually is...
59:07.472 --> 59:11.332
that this is a real risk, um,
59:12.272 --> 59:12.762
probably
59:13.752 --> 59:17.532
you, Samuel, can probably put a- a-
a good, put together a good compilation
59:17.572 --> 59:21.332
of resources for people to, you know,
take that, that
59:21.372 --> 59:23.912
next step. Off the top of my head,
59:24.012 --> 59:26.912
um, I would suggest
59:27.672 --> 59:31.132
definitely check out stopai.info.
59:31.152 --> 59:35.112
There's a presentation there, um,
which does, it's a, it's a recording
59:35.172 --> 59:37.682
of one of the public presentations that,
uh,
59:38.572 --> 59:42.242
we've done to mobilize people in-person,
and so it
59:42.272 --> 59:46.172
does tr- uh,
treat this question in the first part
59:46.212 --> 59:50.192
of the presentation. There's, uh,
there's some, part of
59:50.212 --> 59:54.092
it's given by, uh,
a Professor David Krueger,
59:54.152 --> 59:57.962
who is a aI, who's, who's a professor in,
59:58.312 --> 01:00:01.452
uh, at FAI. And, um,
01:00:03.112 --> 01:00:06.832
you can also check out, um, you know,
there's a great YouTube
01:00:06.892 --> 01:00:10.522
channel For Humanity by John Sherman
that's got a lot
01:00:10.552 --> 01:00:13.892
of AI risk, uh, material on it. Uh,
01:00:14.512 --> 01:00:17.652
Roman Yampolskiy is, uh,
a guy who's spoken out
01:00:19.552 --> 01:00:23.172
very broadly in public
and has been on a number of,
01:00:23.312 --> 01:00:25.282
um, high-reach podcasts,
01:00:26.952 --> 01:00:30.392
and I think these are, these
are compelling arguments.
01:00:30.472 --> 01:00:30.532
So
01:00:31.672 --> 01:00:35.632
for the people that, that do re-
are past that point and recognize
01:00:35.652 --> 01:00:39.402
that this is actually a real risk
and it's urgent and it
01:00:39.432 --> 01:00:43.028
threatens the lives of those we love-The
01:00:43.188 --> 01:00:44.948
absolutely important thing is to join
01:00:45.928 --> 01:00:49.058
these, the,
the movement to stop it immediately.
01:00:49.908 --> 01:00:53.408
And so there are a number of ways
that you can do that,
01:00:53.488 --> 01:00:57.408
Uh,
almost everyone can give some kind of
01:00:57.448 --> 01:01:00.968
of donation to,
to keep the mobilization work of Stop AI
01:01:01.508 --> 01:01:04.808
going, uh, and increase it. Um,
01:01:05.708 --> 01:01:09.068
each person has, you know,
unique talents and skills
01:01:09.108 --> 01:01:11.948
So there's a join form, uh, stopai.
01:01:12.128 --> 01:01:16.108
on, stopai.info. And if you sign up,
then an organizer
01:01:16.148 --> 01:01:19.768
will get in touch with you
and see what the best way
01:01:20.368 --> 01:01:23.088
to, to, to further that movement is.
01:01:23.378 --> 01:01:26.578
And specifically, Stop AI's goals
are to permanently
01:01:26.688 --> 01:01:29.488
ban the development of super intelligence.
01:01:29.528 --> 01:01:30.538
And to, to, and
01:01:31.388 --> 01:01:34.748
pursuant to that,
to mobilize a mass non-violent
01:01:35.168 --> 01:01:39.097
direct action movement of people who
are willing to stand on this
01:01:39.128 --> 01:01:42.948
conviction and dem- and, and, and
are not willing, not satisfied
01:01:43.008 --> 01:01:46.978
to, to say, to sit back
and watch the race go on for another
01:01:47.068 --> 01:01:51.028
day, but are actually able
and willing to take direct action
01:01:51.068 --> 01:01:52.328
to stop it immediately.
01:01:53.188 --> 01:01:56.968
And so,
if you're not able to participate in the
01:01:57.028 --> 01:02:00.808
direct action, there
are many support roles that are
01:02:00.908 --> 01:02:04.148
necessary to facilitate finding those
people who
01:02:04.158 --> 01:02:08.108
are. And so, um,
01:02:08.148 --> 01:02:10.418
you know, financial support
is an essential part of
01:02:10.448 --> 01:02:14.088
that. Yeah, so check out stopai.info,
01:02:14.108 --> 01:02:15.327
definitely.
01:02:15.408 --> 01:02:15.608
Got it.
01:02:15.628 --> 01:02:17.128
That's where I would send people.
01:02:17.168 --> 01:02:20.448
Got it. Thank you for your answer.
I will definitely put the link to your
01:02:20.488 --> 01:02:23.608
you know, in the description. And-
01:02:23.668 --> 01:02:27.438
Yeah.
And if anyone wants to personally get in
01:02:27.448 --> 01:02:30.268
also in- invite that and would,
would be welcome
01:02:30.308 --> 01:02:33.948
to, you know-
01:02:34.028 --> 01:02:34.118
Got it.
01:02:34.118 --> 01:02:37.208
... help encourage and, and,
and mobilize people.
01:02:37.288 --> 01:02:40.568
Got it, got it. I think that was it for,
like, questions from my side.
01:02:40.608 --> 01:02:43.548
Is there anything else which you would,
you know, either like to ask me or just
01:02:43.588 --> 01:02:46.568
bring up on your own?
Anything else you feel, you know,
01:02:46.648 --> 01:02:48.188
important, this should be, you know,
put in
01:02:49.128 --> 01:02:53.068
this video.
Like is there anything like that or,
01:02:53.248 --> 01:02:53.608
Uh-
01:02:53.618 --> 01:02:54.988
... end this?
01:02:55.008 --> 01:02:58.257
Yeah, I think, I think it's like, uh, I w-
I was very...
01:02:58.288 --> 01:03:02.078
It was very interesting to see this
interview with, um,
01:03:02.108 --> 01:03:05.948
Dennis, who's on hunger strike in, uh,
London right now,
01:03:06.008 --> 01:03:09.968
with Max Tegmark who is, uh,
has some reputation in the field
01:03:10.068 --> 01:03:11.328
of, you know, making
01:03:12.408 --> 01:03:16.348
the public aware of AI risk
and has also got credentials.
01:03:16.428 --> 01:03:20.068
And what I would like to see,
and I think is very
01:03:20.108 --> 01:03:24.078
important, is for more people
that have that kind of credential or
01:03:24.168 --> 01:03:27.018
that kind of influence to speak out
publicly
01:03:27.888 --> 01:03:28.728
on the urgency
01:03:29.568 --> 01:03:31.948
and acknowledge that this is an emergency.
01:03:31.988 --> 01:03:35.488
That the fact that we don't know how close
the edge
01:03:35.568 --> 01:03:39.268
is, the fact that there
is so much momentum, inertia in
01:03:39.308 --> 01:03:39.948
society,
01:03:41.308 --> 01:03:45.268
that maneuvering out of the range of this
danger will take time and
01:03:45.288 --> 01:03:48.928
is a massive task. And we don't know
if we have that time,
01:03:50.048 --> 01:03:53.268
and that the consequences of failing
are so large
01:03:54.348 --> 01:03:54.568
that
01:03:55.408 --> 01:03:56.808
all this together is an emer- fo-
01:03:57.788 --> 01:04:01.208
Let's just, let's just be honest
and tell the truth to the public.
01:04:01.288 --> 01:04:02.757
We're in an emergency right now
01:04:03.668 --> 01:04:06.408
and we need to act like it's an emergency.
01:04:07.888 --> 01:04:08.248
And
01:04:09.648 --> 01:04:13.348
fundamentally, this
is a question of each of our's right
01:04:13.768 --> 01:04:17.728
to li- to life, to live. And we need to
01:04:17.768 --> 01:04:18.968
take action today
01:04:20.468 --> 01:04:23.008
to defend that right
and to stop this race immediately.
01:04:23.048 --> 01:04:26.808
It's our right,
it's our power collectively
01:04:28.008 --> 01:04:31.828
and it's our responsibility. And so let's,
let's not le- you
01:04:31.888 --> 01:04:33.477
know, the whole future's riding on this.
01:04:33.508 --> 01:04:36.788
Let's not, let's not let 'em down.
01:04:37.688 --> 01:04:41.388
Got it. Got it, got it. Uh, yeah,
I just wanted to
01:04:41.428 --> 01:04:43.668
again,
like thank you for doing this podcast.
01:04:43.708 --> 01:04:47.348
You know, in spite of, you know,
you literally being on, you know,
01:04:47.368 --> 01:04:50.548
hunger strike, you know, deteriorated,
you know, physical strength, you know,
01:04:50.588 --> 01:04:53.708
mental strength. In spite of that,
you came here, you know,
01:04:53.748 --> 01:04:57.708
gave such a coherent interview
that I hope would be useful to
01:04:57.728 --> 01:04:59.378
all the viewers. Uh-
01:04:59.528 --> 01:04:59.928
Yeah.
01:04:59.938 --> 01:05:03.868
... of this.
Like I just really wanted to appreciate,
01:05:03.928 --> 01:05:05.648
actually did this and yeah-
01:05:05.708 --> 01:05:09.458
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you so much for putting in the
01:05:09.508 --> 01:05:13.498
there. That's something
that I need to put more effort into myself
01:05:13.508 --> 01:05:15.878
the word out there, so...
01:05:16.008 --> 01:05:16.148
Yeah.
01:05:16.168 --> 01:05:16.668
Yeah.
01:05:16.688 --> 01:05:17.158
Got it. Got it.
01:05:17.168 --> 01:05:18.828
It's absolutely necessary.
01:05:18.868 --> 01:05:19.128
Yes.
01:05:19.168 --> 01:05:21.808
Thank you, Samuel. It was good talking.
01:05:21.848 --> 01:05:22.368
Cool. Yeah.
01:05:22.378 --> 01:05:24.448
Let's talk again soon.
01:05:24.528 --> 01:05:25.968
Yes, sure, sure, sure, sure.
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