WEBVTT
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[speaker_0] Hello, my name
is Samuel Shadrach.
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I am looking for a co-founder to leak
information about the
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US AI companies and the US government.
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This plan is based on a mix of Eliezer
Yudkowsky's worldview
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and Julian Assange's worldview.
You can find their worldviews both,
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you know,
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online. There's a lot of writing about it.
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I want a political leader in the United
States to
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obtain enough power to shut down the AI
companies and
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pause AI research.
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In order to do this,
they will have to oppose a lot of people
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who want to
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accelerate AI research.
This includes people in the intelligence
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agencies, people in the executive branch,
including, you know, the current
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president,
people running various media houses,
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people running
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various lobby groups,
people funding all of the people I listed
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up till
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now, you know, including the media,
the lobby groups, intelligence and so on.
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I want to leak information about all of
these enemies to the
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public.
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This rest of the video
is just going to talk about, you know,
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like roughly
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maybe twenty minutes
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describing this plan in more detail.
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Before I describe the plan,
I will give you some disclaimers.
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The biggest disclaimer is
that all plans are fake.
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Like,
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over the next few months,
I am going to do more stuff in the real
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world and figure
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out, you know,
which parts of this plan make sense
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and which parts do not.
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I do not believe in, you know,
figuring out a perfect plan from day one,
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and it just executes perfectly.
I'm publishing incomplete hot
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takes and as, you know, we do stuff,
we are going to
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find out, you know,
what the actual plan is going to be.
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Uh, second disclaimer,
so far I have been working, you know,
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all by myself, solo on
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this. If hypothetically you
were a co-founder, you chose to work with
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me, then obviously your input
is also valued in the plan.
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We will have to make the plan together.
It won't just be me making it alone.
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So yeah, that's my other disclaimer.
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Cool.
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First,
I will start with like my broader
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worldview,
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like not specific to this plan,
but just what is my worldview,
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what do I think
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about politics, about life,
about whatever.
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And from there you will get a sense of,
okay, you know, why am I working on this?
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Yeah. So
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first of all,
I agree with Eliezer Yudkowsky to a
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significant
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extent. I think there
is a significant chance we will
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soon build an AI that
is better than the best human experts at
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everything.
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Like every single task you can imagine,
if you can imagine it,
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you can also imagine
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an AI that's better than the best humans
on that task.
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Now, if we do this,
it will be the most important event of
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human history.
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We will have literally, you know,
a hard disk this big that will
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be capable of, you know,
spawning an entire civilization from
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scratch with no
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human input.
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I think there's maybe a twenty-five
percent chance we will get this by 2030.
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Uh,
maybe forty percent chance we will get
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this by 2035.
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If we do build such a superintelligence,
I think the most likely
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outcome is we will lose control of the
superintelligence, as in we, the human
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race, will lose control of it,
and literally everybody on Earth will die.
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I will die, you will die,
your loved ones will die,
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everyone will die.
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Even if we did figure out how to keep a
superintelligence in control,
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I think the most likely outcome is,
you know, whoever was that person who
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managed to keep the superintelligence in
their control, they will use it to rule
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the world forever. They will become,
you know, permanent global dictator.
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Uh,
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in spite of all this,
like as we know today, there
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are many people
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who want to accelerate AI research.
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There are many people in the US
intelligence who want to accelerate AI
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research.
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I think people in US intelligence have had
a lot of
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unaccountable power, like forever,
at least on certain key
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domains, like whether to start wars,
whether to, you know,
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race on key technology,
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whether to do surveillance, so on.
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So even if you could get fifty-one percent
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of the public, in this case the US public,
to, you know,
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say, "Okay,
we don't want AI to be accelerated at
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maximum pace," even if you could
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get that fifty-one percent,
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that may not actually get you a pause
because, you know, the
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institutional structures are such that,
you know,
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fifty-one percent is not enough.
Like the people who run,
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uh, who are,
are accelerating AI research are not
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that ac-acc-accountable to the
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public.
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Yeah. And ultimately, uh, now I think,
okay, if you could leak information
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about these people,
you can make them more accountable to the
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public, more
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ensure that, you know,
the public will actually gets translated
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into,
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you know,
decision-making in the real world.
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Okay. Some other plans
which I have chosen not to work on.
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At some point, I did think about, okay,
what if we could leak the information of
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everybody on the planet, not just,
you know, people building AI?
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I now think that plan has a number of
moral issues.
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I am not working on that plan.
I'm now working specifically
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on leaking specific information about,
you know, specific people who are
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accelerating AI research. That's it.
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I don't think I should try to become a
billionaire.
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If I become a billionaire,
I don't see how I'll be able to pause AI
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research.
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Like sure, there are things I can try, but
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like there's a very long road even from
there.
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It's not like, okay, you get,
you get power as a billionaire and,
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you know, then
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the world gets saved or something.
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I don't think I can become a politician
because I fucking hate talking to
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people. I'm sorry. [chuckles] That
is true.
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And I have learned this the hard way over
the past one year.
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Uh, I still think somebody should try to,
you know, persuade
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the public around risks from
superintelligence.
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I just don't think I can become
that political leader who will, you know,
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persuade
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millions of people.
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I think there are people in the past who
have, you know, opposed, you know,
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billionaires, politicians,
powerful people.
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In particular, there
are like certain software developers who
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have, you know,
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become activists and
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And, you know, oppose these people,
some of these software developers who have
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succeeded,
they have succeeded because they
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were living in a different country from
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the country whose leaders they want to
oppose.
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So, I mean, there
are many examples you can take.
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For example, you know,
like Sandra Albakyan who runs, you know,
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LibGen.
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Uh,
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sorry, uh, who runs SkyHub,
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who lives in, you know, Eastern Europe,
which makes her more immune to, you know,
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uh, lawsuits from, you know, US, uh,
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academic publishers.
I can give you many examples like this.
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You can go check them on my website.
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Yeah, so I think this plan of, okay,
live in a different country from the
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country
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whose leaders you want to oppose,
I think this plan still has some weight in
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it,
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and this seems like what I'll be doing.
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Lastly, I have typically,
at least until recently,
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been, you know,
kind of a believer in capitalism,
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in democracy.
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Uh, I believed, okay, like, you know,
self-interested
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people run the world,
but you can use structures to constrain
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their
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self-interest,
and this can lead to good outcomes for
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society.
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However,
now I'm not advocating just capitalism as
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usual, democracy as
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usual. I'm saying, okay,
we need a mass movement.
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We need to, you know,
overthrow these people.
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We need to pause AI research.
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Like,
this is like radical shift from my earlier
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worldview.
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And like, yes, my opinions have changed.
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Uh, I...
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In theory,
you can have a mass movement within,
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you know, pure democratic
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framework. In practice,
I don't know what a mass movement will
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actually do.
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Mass movements can become violent.
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Mass movements can, you know,
change an old form,
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structure of government and
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replace it with a new structure.
Exactly what will happen once there is a
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mass movement, even I don't actually know.
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Uh, my opinion on this is this
is not actually my problem.
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Uh, the people who
are in fact leading the mass movement,
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this is their problem to
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deal with it, okay?
If you did have millions of people who
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are, you know,
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protesting on the streets to pause AI
research, what these people will do,
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what will happen after that, that is
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the problem of the peop- the leaders.
That's not my problem personally.
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Cool. Next thing I want to talk about
is the theory of change.
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I did briefly mention it.
I will again mention it,
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uh, more clearly. The theory of change
is simply that,
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okay,
if the public knew everything about the
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leaders who are governing them,
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it becomes more likely
that the leaders will do what the majority
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of the public
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actually wants.
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Uh, otherwise, typically what happens,
leaders face multiple
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competing pressures.
They face pressures to make money.
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They face pressures to win wars
and defend their territory.
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They face pressures to win votes
and get elected, which is quite
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closely related to,
but not the same thing as, you know,
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doing what the public
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actually wants.
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Uh, right now,
I just want to strengthen this pressure
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that, okay,
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leaders should have to actually get votes,
win people's
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minds and hearts,
and only then be able to do the thing.
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Uh,
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so basically, I want to make the,
whatever, democratic pressure
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stronger as compared to, you know,
market pressure or military pressure or
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whatever.
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Uh,
there are many people in effectual circles
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in particular who have
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various theories of change. Uh,
some of the theories of change
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often include, okay, identify who
is powerful and then we will go side with
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them, ally with them.
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Uh,
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my theory of change is not this.
My theory of change
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is not trying to be like,
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okay, let's find the specific, you know,
powerful person and go persuade that guy
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or woman, whatever.
My theory of change is, okay, if
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all the leaders' information was public,
then those leaders actually don't have
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freedom to take independent decisions.
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They will have to do whatever the public
wants out of them, and I think this is
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good in this case.
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Uh,
maybe leaking information about them
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is enough to make them
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accountable. Maybe that
is not actually enough.
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You need actual mass movement, actual,
you know, people protesting.
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I do not actually know. I'm not sure.
I think both are worth trying.
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Someone should try leaking information on
these people and someone should try
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building a mass movement.
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Cool.
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Next section of this video.
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What is my motivation for working on this?
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So like, in my head, motivation
is different, theory of change
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is different.
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Theory of change is, okay, if I do X,
then Y will happen in the world,
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then A will
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happen, then B will happen.
You can have your whole, you know,
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galaxy brain plan.
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Motivation is about what you feel,
what are your emotions around this whole
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thing,
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and feelings don't have to be rational
or justified by facts, whatever.
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So yeah, what is my motivation?
What do I feel?
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Like, what are my feelings that
are driving towards like, okay,
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you have to go work
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on this?
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I think my biggest motivation here,
and I'm not actually sure if, you know, my
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motivations change with time or whatever,
but I think my biggest motivation
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here is
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I don't want to die. I don't want,
you know, everyone I care about
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to die. I
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don't want these people who
are building superintelligence to kill me
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and
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everyone I care about. And
if someone comes and, you know,
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tries to kill me,
I'm willing to go pretty far to, you know,
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fucking fight that
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person.
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Uh, like take a hypothetical. Imagine,
imagine this was not, you
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know, some random
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AIC or whatever. Imagine it
was one of my friends.
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Tomorrow they decided, okay,
they will build a bomb that bo-
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blows up everyone on
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the planet. Uh, they had some, you know,
deranged beliefs.
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Oh, this will get us utopia, whatever.
11:40.124 --> 11:42.834
Uh, I don't buy those beliefs,
but what in practice they're doing,
11:42.904 --> 11:43.044
they're
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literally spending day
and night working on a bomb to blow up
11:46.084 --> 11:46.524
everyone
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and the plan to set it off. Now,
I might like my friend, like I
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might like my friend for their honesty,
for their courage.
11:54.204 --> 11:57.524
They might be, you know,
high on openness to experience like me.
11:57.564 --> 12:01.144
They might be atheist. They might,
you know, support technological progress.
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There may be various reasons I like my
friend.
12:03.684 --> 12:06.024
But the fact that I like my friend
is less important.
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The fact that they plan to fucking kill me
is more important.
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And therefore, you know,
if I have to go kill my friend, then,
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you know, I will do
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it.
12:13.484 --> 12:13.904
Uh-
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Now I have to caution a bit here, like,
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I am not saying, okay, we should just go,
you know, kill everyone who's going to
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build ASI and that will fix the problem.
12:24.632 --> 12:26.752
Assassinations don't actually work.
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Like,
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I am not trying to assassinate people.
12:30.152 --> 12:33.892
I am not actively asking anyone to attempt
an assassination either.
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However, emotionally in my head, I'm like,
yeah, if we have to go that far, of
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course, we're going to go that far. Like,
there's no question about it.
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Uh, this is my strongest motivation,
but there are other motivations also.
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You can go look into the document I wrote
for some of them.
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Uh,
I often remind myself about the fact that,
12:53.552 --> 12:54.562
you know, if all this
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happens, if
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I am not crazy and this, you know,
ASI gets built, you know, I am going to
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die.
I have taken various steps to keep
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reminding myself I'm going to
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die.
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If I have to sacrifice myself
and the world gets saved, you know,
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I am fine with
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that.
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I generally hate authority.
That has always been a thing.
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This could be authority of parents
or family, of religion,
13:18.752 --> 13:22.592
of governments, of educational systems,
like any sort of authority.
13:23.552 --> 13:27.492
And I want the truth about, you know,
what all these forms of authority
13:27.512 --> 13:30.712
are actually doing. Like,
how does society function as a result of,
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you know, all
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this authority,
all this pressure being exerted on people?
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I want the truth of all of this to come
out publicly, and I have some hope, you
13:37.012 --> 13:37.112
know,
13:37.992 --> 13:41.892
if people are still alive, you know,
in 10 years or 50 years, 100
13:41.932 --> 13:43.892
years from now,
they can use all this information
13:43.932 --> 13:45.432
and they can design some better
13:45.492 --> 13:48.952
society for themselves, better than,
you know, the current whatever we live in.
13:51.792 --> 13:55.692
Yeah, so I want the truth to come out.
I am a very strong believer in the truth.
14:00.172 --> 14:02.712
Okay, some more motivations. Uh,
14:04.532 --> 14:08.112
I am not pretending to represent,
you know, all of
14:08.132 --> 14:10.092
humanity's interests like some...
14:11.052 --> 14:14.012
I am some benevolent leader who, you know,
accounts everyone's interests and
14:14.092 --> 14:16.892
calculates, you know,
like in Yudkowsky's worldview, this
14:16.932 --> 14:18.012
is like a CEV.
14:18.932 --> 14:19.352
Uh,
14:20.932 --> 14:23.292
like there are different philosophies
or different names for it,
14:23.352 --> 14:24.092
but like I'm not
14:24.152 --> 14:26.532
trying to say, "Oh,
I am representing everyone's interests." I
14:26.551 --> 14:27.352
am here to represent
14:27.392 --> 14:28.912
my interests, which
is I don't want to die
14:28.952 --> 14:30.072
and I don't want to live in a dead
14:30.132 --> 14:32.832
world.
And you might also benefit from that.
14:32.892 --> 14:35.012
Like, if I save the world,
you will also not die,
14:35.042 --> 14:36.272
and that's also in your benefit.
14:36.332 --> 14:40.092
But I am not, like, saying, "Oh,
I will just
14:40.132 --> 14:43.972
defer to you on things." Like,
I'm doing this because I want the world to
14:44.012 --> 14:44.092
be
14:44.112 --> 14:45.892
a certain way and not another way.
14:47.312 --> 14:50.332
Yeah, and many people say they
are fine with human extinction.
14:50.912 --> 14:54.072
I think that some of them are wrong,
but also it doesn't matter.
14:54.332 --> 14:56.632
You may be fine with it.
I am not fine with it and, you know,
14:56.672 --> 14:57.312
I'm going to fight
14:57.352 --> 14:57.572
this.
15:01.212 --> 15:05.192
I am a huge fan of Naval Ravikant's quote
that I
15:05.232 --> 15:07.852
should not just keep blaming other people
that the world is ending.
15:07.932 --> 15:10.252
I should also, you know,
take ownership of this problem
15:10.292 --> 15:10.982
and be like, you know, if
15:10.992 --> 15:12.432
the world ends, this is my fault as well.
15:12.572 --> 15:16.412
Like,
I also should have done my best to prevent
15:16.452 --> 15:19.812
this from happening. And if I failed to,
you know, do my best, I should also blame
15:19.852 --> 15:20.412
myself.
15:21.412 --> 15:23.732
And I, yeah, I buy that.
15:26.192 --> 15:26.692
Uh,
15:27.552 --> 15:31.392
a more self-interest, again,
another reason, like,
15:32.752 --> 15:35.472
working alone on problems is, you know,
15:36.072 --> 15:37.172
demotivating.
15:38.012 --> 15:40.972
I don't want to become depressed.
I think there is a small chance,
15:41.052 --> 15:41.592
not very big,
15:41.652 --> 15:44.972
but a small chance I will become depressed
if I don't find anyone to work with
15:45.012 --> 15:48.112
this. So again,
I would really like to work with someone
15:48.152 --> 15:48.672
on this.
15:49.892 --> 15:53.492
Uh, don't join just because, oh,
Samuel's mental health or whatever.
15:53.572 --> 15:56.472
That is a bad reason to join.
If you actually believe in this cause
15:56.512 --> 15:56.692
and you
15:56.732 --> 15:59.732
actually want to go all in,
then you can come work with me.
16:02.232 --> 16:02.532
Uh,
16:03.732 --> 16:07.612
if I am going to die for whatever reason,
be it due to ASI, be it for any other
16:07.621 --> 16:10.312
reason, like,
I want people to remember that, okay,
16:10.392 --> 16:11.432
here are things I
16:11.452 --> 16:15.132
did that were beneficial for the
16:15.192 --> 16:18.612
world. Uh,
I want people to remember my work after I
16:18.672 --> 16:18.952
die.
16:19.072 --> 16:21.032
I don't want to just die and be forgotten.
16:21.252 --> 16:22.892
I think that's another motivation I do
have.
16:25.092 --> 16:28.892
So that I think concludes the section on,
you know, what are my motivations, why am
16:28.932 --> 16:29.832
I working on this.
16:32.252 --> 16:35.612
Okay, next section,
what will I not be working on?
16:36.512 --> 16:39.412
I am, like I said,
I am not working on persuading people.
16:39.712 --> 16:41.492
My focus is on leaking information.
16:41.632 --> 16:45.012
Other people can work on persuading people
that, you know, superintelligence is
16:45.052 --> 16:48.012
coming, the world is ending,
you need to do something about it today.
16:50.132 --> 16:54.062
I am not working on sabotage.
Sabotage means basically destroying other
16:54.112 --> 16:57.512
people's, uh, equipment, property,
16:57.852 --> 16:59.952
occasionally livelihood. But yeah,
17:00.892 --> 17:03.212
like,
I don't think sabotaging AI companies
17:03.252 --> 17:04.372
is actually going to work.
17:04.481 --> 17:06.152
Again,
there are too many people trying to build
17:06.212 --> 17:06.532
AI.
17:06.872 --> 17:07.092
Uh,
17:08.232 --> 17:09.592
if you just go, you know,
17:10.632 --> 17:14.492
destroy a few computers or something,
be it by hacking, be it any means, like,
17:14.832 --> 17:17.952
this doesn't actually stop the AI race.
There are too many people.
17:17.992 --> 17:19.892
There's too much money in this space.
17:20.752 --> 17:24.352
Like, if you actually, let's say,
you know, blew up TSMC, I can see how that
17:24.412 --> 17:27.432
actually helps. But apart from that,
I don't see how sabotage actually helps.
17:27.932 --> 17:29.692
Therefore, I am not working on sabotage.
17:30.312 --> 17:32.811
I am not working on assassinating anyone.
17:32.932 --> 17:34.772
Uh, I want to again make this clear.
17:34.832 --> 17:38.612
I don't think assassinating any one person
is actually going to stop the AI race.
17:41.952 --> 17:42.252
Cool.
17:43.092 --> 17:46.152
Now I'm going to come to an important
section on morality.
17:48.472 --> 17:51.152
Yeah,
why am I talking about morality so much?
17:51.392 --> 17:55.272
Uh, well, firstly, because a lot of,
you know, people in
17:55.452 --> 17:58.612
EA strong circles had issues with my moral
worldview or whatever.
17:59.232 --> 18:03.172
But also because I think morality
is one of the core things
18:03.252 --> 18:04.872
about a person,
one of the core things
18:04.912 --> 18:06.552
that helps people to coordinate.
18:06.952 --> 18:07.212
Uh,
18:08.252 --> 18:12.072
if I'm trying to find more people to
coordinate with me, it makes at least some
18:12.132 --> 18:13.932
sense for me to talk about morality.
18:14.132 --> 18:17.922
Also, the kind of plan we're working on,
we will have to cross some moral lines, I
18:18.012 --> 18:20.002
think. Especially if we
are crossing moral lines,
18:20.092 --> 18:21.152
we need to be careful about,
18:21.212 --> 18:23.232
okay, which lines we're crossing
and why and so on.
18:26.242 --> 18:30.182
Yeah, my worldview on morality is I think,
first of all, most writing on
18:30.222 --> 18:32.582
morality is kind of useless. It's just,
18:33.462 --> 18:35.082
yeah,
like if you see like writings on moral
18:35.122 --> 18:36.462
philosophy and then what those people
18:36.482 --> 18:39.002
actually go do in the real life,
like these are like two completely
18:39.062 --> 18:39.362
separate
18:39.422 --> 18:43.082
things. And therefore,
I think most writing on morality is
18:43.182 --> 18:46.602
useless. Well, maybe useless
is going too far.
18:46.622 --> 18:50.382
I would say not that useful.
Like morality is something
18:50.422 --> 18:53.722
that's tested in practice, not in theory.
I very strongly believe this.
18:54.662 --> 18:57.222
Uh,
one thing I do believe about morality
18:57.322 --> 18:58.032
is that,
18:59.342 --> 19:01.762
and again, I'm not sure, but this
is something I believe, like
19:01.842 --> 19:02.922
if you have had like
19:02.962 --> 19:06.522
a very nice life,
like you've had a comfortable life where--
19:06.562 --> 19:06.742
with
19:06.762 --> 19:08.742
people who you trust,
with people you're happy with,
19:08.802 --> 19:10.722
like you will by default want
19:10.742 --> 19:12.101
to be nice to people all the time.
19:13.002 --> 19:16.311
I don't think being nice to people all the
time is going to fix the problem of risk
19:16.322 --> 19:19.942
from superintelligence.
I think some people need to be less nice
19:20.022 --> 19:20.222
to the
19:20.242 --> 19:22.662
people building superintelligence and,
you know, go fight them.
19:23.802 --> 19:26.542
Uh, again, not physically fight them,
but fight them in other means.
19:26.922 --> 19:27.042
Uh,
19:28.402 --> 19:32.142
so if you have had a very nice life,
your default approach may or may not
19:32.182 --> 19:32.802
actually work.
19:33.602 --> 19:35.942
If you have suffered a lot in life,
now you have a choice.
19:36.022 --> 19:39.842
Like you understand that, okay,
when a situation comes, there is a
19:39.902 --> 19:42.542
more nice way of dealing with it
and a less nice way of dealing with it.
19:43.482 --> 19:47.122
And I personally, I am not everyone,
I am a specific person, I am
19:47.142 --> 19:51.092
sympathetic to the people who have
suffered in the past and then therefore
19:51.142 --> 19:53.542
they understand that sometimes you have to
take the less nice route.
19:53.582 --> 19:56.062
You can't always be nice
and expect situations to get solved.
19:57.862 --> 20:00.922
I am sympathetic those-- to those people.
I am one of those people.
20:01.222 --> 20:01.822
I might
20:02.622 --> 20:06.422
prefer working with someone like
that who understands this
20:06.862 --> 20:08.042
fact about human nature.
20:10.302 --> 20:13.062
Uh,
I think it's possible to go too far with
20:13.142 --> 20:13.322
this.
20:13.402 --> 20:15.102
Like,
I don't want to become someone who
20:15.182 --> 20:17.202
full-time enjoys, you know, inflicting
20:17.242 --> 20:18.962
pain and suffering on my enemies. But
20:19.942 --> 20:22.052
like we need to understand our job
is to inflict pain
20:22.062 --> 20:23.182
and suffering on our enemies.
20:23.262 --> 20:25.842
Like they need to lose power,
we need to gain power.
20:29.702 --> 20:32.162
Uh,
I don't think I'm alone in having
20:32.222 --> 20:33.502
understanding of this, you know,
20:33.542 --> 20:36.672
fact about human nature.
I think many political leaders also have
20:36.702 --> 20:37.342
understood that
20:37.362 --> 20:39.862
sometimes you have to take, you know,
the less nice route.
20:41.022 --> 20:44.682
Uh, examples, Winston Churchill,
in my view,
20:44.742 --> 20:47.942
basically spent his entire career
brainwashing teenagers to, you know,
20:47.982 --> 20:48.502
walk into
20:48.542 --> 20:50.162
their own deaths. And I think this
is fine.
20:50.202 --> 20:52.322
He's still on the right side of history
for me.
20:52.442 --> 20:54.742
Uh,
Nelson Mandela's wife basically joined a
20:54.762 --> 20:56.092
terrorist organization to, you know,
20:56.122 --> 20:58.082
do attacks against the British. I
20:58.942 --> 21:01.342
think that was fine.
She's on the right side of history.
21:01.522 --> 21:04.862
Was it all this most maximally effective
and all that? I don't know.
21:04.942 --> 21:07.582
But like I think morally all this is okay.
21:08.282 --> 21:09.682
Uh,
there were people who tried in
21:09.742 --> 21:10.722
assassinating Hitler.
21:10.822 --> 21:12.942
I support the people who tried
assassinating Hitler.
21:13.562 --> 21:15.202
Uh,
I respect all these people for
21:15.242 --> 21:16.982
understanding that sometimes you do need
to
21:17.042 --> 21:17.941
actually go that far.
21:20.762 --> 21:22.342
Okay,
so this is my thing on morality in
21:22.382 --> 21:22.742
general.
21:22.812 --> 21:25.422
Now applying it to the specific plan of
leaking information.
21:25.482 --> 21:29.142
Like when it comes to leaking information,
what are the specific moral
21:29.162 --> 21:33.072
decisions we have to make? Uh, first,
who are we targeting?
21:33.302 --> 21:36.122
Second,
what are we going to leak to the public?
21:36.182 --> 21:38.262
And third, what methods
are we going to use?
21:39.442 --> 21:42.682
Okay, so the first one is easy. Uh,
who are we targeting?
21:42.722 --> 21:46.102
For me, it's like, for me, the answer
is everyone. It's a very broad umbrella.
21:46.302 --> 21:50.182
Like we can target anyone working at any
of the USA companies,
21:50.242 --> 21:53.922
anyone working in the US intelligence
community, anyone working in any of the
21:53.942 --> 21:57.642
political campaigns working to accelerate
AI, anyone being
21:57.702 --> 22:00.062
funded,
anyone who's funding any of these people.
22:00.502 --> 22:03.062
Like this could be senior people,
junior people,
22:04.062 --> 22:06.702
people currently working,
people previously working.
22:06.762 --> 22:09.682
Like the umbrella is very broad.
Like for who are we targeting?
22:09.762 --> 22:13.242
I'm targeting everyone.
Like I am fine with acquiring
22:13.302 --> 22:17.122
information on everyone,
but I want to be selective about
22:17.162 --> 22:19.932
what information we leak.
Like we can acquire a lot of information,
22:20.002 --> 22:20.422
but then what
22:20.442 --> 22:21.942
we leak to the public is a separate thing.
22:21.971 --> 22:23.162
There,
I would like this to be a bit more
22:23.202 --> 22:23.622
selective.
22:25.502 --> 22:29.102
Now what-- Now comes question two,
what information am I okay leaking to the
22:29.142 --> 22:31.722
public as opposed to, you know,
we just acquire it,
22:31.782 --> 22:33.082
we kept it for ourselves, we
22:33.102 --> 22:33.942
don't do much with it?
22:35.502 --> 22:39.442
The short answer is I don't actually know
what information we should be
22:39.482 --> 22:42.102
leaking to the public.
Like the end goal is, okay,
22:42.162 --> 22:43.022
make all these leaders
22:43.042 --> 22:46.462
accountable to the public and, you know,
stop the AI race.
22:47.542 --> 22:50.642
Now, in order to do that,
what information should we leak such
22:50.722 --> 22:51.452
that this happens?
22:51.562 --> 22:54.442
I don't actually know.
I have not yet done surveys.
22:54.662 --> 22:55.722
I just have some guesses
22:56.642 --> 22:59.242
based on, you know,
my reading of previous leaks and so on.
23:00.322 --> 23:04.082
Uh, guess number one, I want, want to
23:04.142 --> 23:07.622
find out like why don't we have anti-AI
23:07.702 --> 23:09.862
political leaders already? Like
23:11.302 --> 23:14.722
already if you survey, you know,
the public, it's like, you know, 50%
23:14.942 --> 23:18.542
pro-AI, 50% anti.
So like half the public is anti-AI.
23:18.582 --> 23:20.602
Like why are there no leaders representing
these people?
23:20.642 --> 23:24.282
Like, and why do they not have, you know,
50% of the political power if, you know,
23:24.462 --> 23:26.402
50% of the people are voting against AI?
23:27.242 --> 23:29.182
So I want to find out, you know, what
are the pressures that
23:29.242 --> 23:30.722
are being put on all
23:30.762 --> 23:33.142
these anti-AI political leaders?
23:33.202 --> 23:37.102
Like why are these people not already in
power? Like what is stopping them?
23:37.162 --> 23:37.362
Like
23:39.022 --> 23:42.222
are they being, you know,
cut out from the relevant networks of
23:42.242 --> 23:42.882
elites?
23:43.102 --> 23:47.062
Do they not get funding?
Do media houses refuse to work with them?
23:47.702 --> 23:50.212
Are they just being demoralized?
Are they being, you know,
23:50.262 --> 23:51.142
physically threatened?
23:51.262 --> 23:54.122
Like what is stopping them? This
is something I want to understand
23:54.202 --> 23:55.002
and also leak to
23:55.042 --> 23:55.662
the public.
23:56.502 --> 24:00.422
So a concrete example, in the 2016 US
24:00.502 --> 24:04.442
presidential election, uh, it
was found out that people
24:04.482 --> 24:08.262
in the DNC were conspiring against Bernie
Sanders in
24:08.322 --> 24:11.902
favor of Hillary Clinton. Uh,
a hacker group basically got
24:12.022 --> 24:15.362
emails within people in the DNC,
and they leaked these emails.
24:15.562 --> 24:18.402
And as a result,
I think Hillary Clinton actually became
24:18.442 --> 24:19.122
less popular.
24:19.462 --> 24:21.862
Uh, Bernie Sanders, you know,
became slightly more popular.
24:22.802 --> 24:24.842
Uh,
I think this is an example of the type of
24:24.902 --> 24:26.582
thing I would want to leak.
24:26.642 --> 24:29.182
I would want to leak, you know, what
are the pressures all these people
24:29.222 --> 24:29.762
are facing
24:29.982 --> 24:33.874
and why are they not able To come to power
if they are actually, you
24:33.914 --> 24:35.374
know, representing people's interests.
24:37.334 --> 24:39.754
Second,
I want to leak information about personal
24:39.814 --> 24:40.314
abuse.
24:40.814 --> 24:43.734
For example,
Sam Altman has been accused of raping his
24:43.774 --> 24:44.254
sister.
24:44.514 --> 24:45.854
I don't know if that actually happened.
24:45.954 --> 24:49.874
However, if this actually happened,
I want evidence about this to be leaked to
24:49.914 --> 24:50.474
the public.
24:52.094 --> 24:56.064
Uh, again, if you had enough--
if you had actual concrete evidence, you
24:56.074 --> 24:59.404
had enough people rallying around this,
I think you actually can put powerful
24:59.494 --> 25:03.214
people in prison, even if, like,
if they are, you know, rapists or,
25:04.314 --> 25:05.854
uh, similarly abusive.
25:06.694 --> 25:09.674
I think this can be done. Historic-- Like,
doing this is hard.
25:09.734 --> 25:12.934
Like, you know, for example,
you obviously know about the Epstein
25:12.994 --> 25:13.424
files,
25:13.514 --> 25:15.874
where there have been a lot of
speculations,
25:15.974 --> 25:17.494
but not enough concrete evidence
25:17.554 --> 25:19.333
as to, you know, who is a rapist, who
is not.
25:19.474 --> 25:22.974
If you had concrete evidence and you had,
you know, public pressure, I still think
25:23.014 --> 25:24.454
you can put these people in prison.
25:25.834 --> 25:28.194
Third,
I want to leak information about
25:28.254 --> 25:29.574
democratic safeguards being
25:29.614 --> 25:33.354
broken. So an example here, again,
famous example
25:33.574 --> 25:35.254
would be when Edward Snowden,
25:36.074 --> 25:37.774
uh,
talked about the NSA surveillance
25:37.834 --> 25:38.494
programs.
25:38.754 --> 25:42.474
He particularly talked about how various
congressmen, various
25:42.494 --> 25:44.814
senators were not informed about these
programs.
25:44.874 --> 25:47.934
He talked about how various Supreme Court
judges were not informed about these
25:47.954 --> 25:51.074
programs.
He talked about how secret courts were
25:51.084 --> 25:55.064
established, uh, so
that you did not have to go through
25:55.064 --> 25:58.644
the official courts to, you know, get,
you know, your warrant or whatever for the
25:58.734 --> 25:59.354
surveillance.
26:00.614 --> 26:02.644
By default,
I'm expecting similar things
26:02.674 --> 26:03.714
are going to happen again.
26:03.814 --> 26:07.174
You know, the US AI companies
and the US intelligence are going to make
26:07.194 --> 26:10.274
alliances and have--
and they could end up having some secret
26:10.284 --> 26:11.034
programs running.
26:11.074 --> 26:13.914
I would want to leak information about
those secret programs.
26:16.054 --> 26:19.994
Uh,
then I want to leak information about who
26:20.074 --> 26:22.794
in the AI companies
is actually fine with human extinction.
26:23.614 --> 26:23.934
Like,
26:25.954 --> 26:29.754
supporting human extinction actively
is very unpopular,
26:29.894 --> 26:31.894
and I want it to remain very unpopular.
26:32.274 --> 26:35.914
I want to leak information about, like,
who's, you know, building
26:36.234 --> 26:40.213
ASI and secretly believes, okay,
human extinction due to
26:40.294 --> 26:44.254
ASI is a good thing. Again,
I don't want to punish free
26:44.394 --> 26:46.694
speech here. Like,
you have an unpopular opinion, fine.
26:47.114 --> 26:50.434
But if you use that unpopular opinion to,
you know, literally risk everyone's lives
26:50.474 --> 26:51.943
on Earth, then I want that to be leaked.
26:51.994 --> 26:54.034
That, okay, this is,
you had this unpopular opinion,
26:54.074 --> 26:54.854
therefore you did it.
26:55.814 --> 26:59.704
So concrete example here, uh,
Elon Musk has accused
26:59.834 --> 27:02.294
Larry Page of supporting human extinction.
27:03.374 --> 27:05.834
Uh,
Larry Page has a controlling interest in
27:05.874 --> 27:06.734
Google and Google
27:06.774 --> 27:07.374
DeepMind.
27:08.574 --> 27:12.394
Jürgen Schmidhuber, uh, more
or less supports human
27:12.434 --> 27:14.694
extinction. Again,
he's waffly about his language,
27:14.794 --> 27:16.054
but he basically is fine with,
27:16.134 --> 27:18.014
you know,
an AI takes over the civilization and,
27:18.094 --> 27:18.704
you know, humans are
27:19.014 --> 27:20.274
ir-irrelevant, blah, blah, blah.
27:21.134 --> 27:24.674
Uh, many of DeepMind's early employees,
such as, you know, Shane Legg, such as
27:24.714 --> 27:28.154
Marcus Hutter, such as Seth Hochreiter,
they were trained under Jürgen
27:28.194 --> 27:32.074
Schmidhuber. So if all of these people,
you know, such as Shane
27:32.114 --> 27:35.114
Legg, such as Marcus Hutter, and so on,
if they are all actually fine with human
27:35.174 --> 27:37.974
extinction, then I also want
that information to reach the public.
27:38.474 --> 27:39.313
I want to leak that.
27:41.534 --> 27:43.174
Lastly, uh,
27:44.294 --> 27:47.194
if there are any, like,
rogue groups who are trying to, you know,
27:47.494 --> 27:47.694
build
27:47.774 --> 27:51.714
superintelligence in secret, like, again,
I would want to leak that also.
27:51.754 --> 27:54.754
Like, to pause AI,
it's not enough to just have, like, a
27:54.774 --> 27:58.494
treaty signed by some leaders.
You also need to enforce
27:58.574 --> 28:00.414
it.
If there are people in secret trying to
28:00.454 --> 28:02.254
build, you know, ASI, I don't want them
28:02.294 --> 28:04.094
to build it in secret. I want to leak,
okay,
28:04.174 --> 28:05.694
who's trying to build this in secret.
28:06.494 --> 28:08.484
Yeah,
these are my guesses for what information
28:08.514 --> 28:09.164
we have to leak.
28:09.174 --> 28:11.214
But again, I will reiterate,
I don't actually know.
28:11.274 --> 28:12.974
We are going to find this out as we go
along.
28:13.874 --> 28:17.374
Uh,
never in human history have we lived under
28:17.474 --> 28:17.714
fully
28:17.794 --> 28:21.094
transparent leadership.
Leadership has always been secretive by
28:21.134 --> 28:21.674
default
28:22.594 --> 28:26.514
and unaccountable by default. Uh,
today we have
28:26.574 --> 28:29.654
tools that enable, you know, less secrecy,
more
28:29.704 --> 28:33.174
transparency, and maybe also more
28:33.214 --> 28:35.134
accountability,
although that's kind of debated.
28:35.854 --> 28:39.194
So we are going to find this out as we go
along, what leaks are actually the most
28:39.234 --> 28:39.684
useful.
28:41.634 --> 28:44.134
Okay,
so I initially started with we need to
28:44.194 --> 28:45.614
make some moral decisions, like what
28:45.694 --> 28:48.554
information can we acquire?
What do we leak?
28:48.814 --> 28:52.114
And what methods to be used?
So what information we acquire, again,
28:52.194 --> 28:52.634
it's like we
28:52.674 --> 28:55.794
can acquire everything. What do we leak?
28:56.754 --> 28:59.884
Uh, my answer is I don't know,
but here are my specific guesses of some
28:59.914 --> 29:00.354
information
29:00.394 --> 29:04.084
we, I think we should try to leak.
Third comes what methods are we allowed to
29:04.154 --> 29:07.174
use? [coughs] Now,
when it comes to what methods
29:07.214 --> 29:08.114
are we allowed to use,
29:08.214 --> 29:09.874
now,
if you're trying to get information on
29:09.894 --> 29:11.194
someone, you have to break their
29:11.234 --> 29:14.234
security in some way. Now,
typically this means either breaking
29:14.274 --> 29:15.194
physical security
29:15.434 --> 29:18.854
or cybersecurity, uh, more,
more broadly information security.
29:18.874 --> 29:20.804
So physical security,
information security,
29:21.034 --> 29:22.354
or you break their social circle.
29:23.494 --> 29:27.394
So example of breaking physical security
would be, you know, the Pentagon Pizza
29:27.414 --> 29:27.914
Index,
29:29.014 --> 29:31.434
uh, [coughs] which was basically
29:32.574 --> 29:36.314
people found out that, okay, when a war
is about to be declared, you know,
29:36.414 --> 29:40.174
people near the Pentagon order a lot of
pizzas, and this shows up on Google
29:40.234 --> 29:43.154
Maps or whatever. So you can predict,
okay, if a lot of pizzas
29:43.174 --> 29:43.664
are being ordered,
29:43.714 --> 29:45.814
probably a war is going to be, you know,
ordered.
29:47.134 --> 29:49.674
Uh, another example is this famous
29:50.614 --> 29:53.514
Substack writer, Dominic Cummings,
who worked under,
29:54.554 --> 29:58.194
like, worked, uh,
during the Brexit political campaigns in
29:58.254 --> 29:58.314
the
29:58.394 --> 30:01.054
UK.
He wrote about how he basically literally
30:01.064 --> 30:02.314
searched through the trash cans of
30:02.354 --> 30:04.614
his opponent,
and he found the entire political campaign
30:04.674 --> 30:05.594
of his, you know, opponent
30:05.654 --> 30:08.614
in those trash cans. So these
are examples of, you know,
30:08.674 --> 30:09.294
breaking physical
30:09.354 --> 30:11.354
security, where your
30:12.174 --> 30:15.774
enemy has left some, you know, clues,
some trails, some information in physical
30:15.874 --> 30:18.894
space. Uh,
there are more violent ways of this
30:18.914 --> 30:19.794
that the
30:19.854 --> 30:22.614
most violent is something like, you know,
literally kidnap someone and get
30:22.654 --> 30:25.594
information out of them.
I'm not very keen on doing that,
30:25.654 --> 30:26.594
at least to begin with.
30:26.834 --> 30:26.974
Uh,
30:27.954 --> 30:28.234
that's
30:29.054 --> 30:32.974
physical security.
Next comes cybersecurity, information
30:33.034 --> 30:36.194
security. Uh,
this means basically we hack into their
30:36.254 --> 30:36.934
servers, and we get
30:36.974 --> 30:38.034
information out of that
30:39.554 --> 30:43.294
Third,
and what I'm actually have most hope about
30:43.354 --> 30:43.534
right
30:43.574 --> 30:45.534
now is breaking their social circle.
30:46.194 --> 30:49.434
Breaking social circle basically means
find someone in their social circle who
30:49.454 --> 30:51.774
will, you know, turn against them
and give us the information.
30:54.354 --> 30:57.474
Now,
this has already historically been done by
30:57.534 --> 30:58.114
various, you know,
30:58.174 --> 31:01.734
journalists and, you know, OSINT, uh,
open-source intelligence
31:01.794 --> 31:02.634
specialists.
31:03.934 --> 31:06.844
Uh, there are, at least today, there
are now various media houses
31:06.874 --> 31:07.444
that work with,
31:07.494 --> 31:08.864
you know,
OSINT specialists because they've
31:08.874 --> 31:10.064
understood this is how, you know,
31:10.114 --> 31:11.054
journalism works today.
31:11.974 --> 31:15.654
So OSINT includes everything from,
you know, analyzing social media to,
31:15.674 --> 31:15.794
you know,
31:15.874 --> 31:19.774
building tools to dox people online, to,
you know, analyzing flight data of,
31:19.834 --> 31:23.694
you know, flights, flights are public,
to analyzing satellite data, to
31:23.794 --> 31:26.854
analyzing, you know,
camera footage that's uploaded publicly.
31:27.474 --> 31:29.694
Like,
just any information available online,
31:29.774 --> 31:31.434
try to analyze that, identify, you
31:31.474 --> 31:35.414
know, like who knows who,
who did what when, who did what
31:35.474 --> 31:36.834
why, just get information.
31:38.314 --> 31:41.834
So this I want to work on. Uh,
once we have this
31:41.854 --> 31:45.754
information, then you can do things like,
okay, interview specific people
31:45.794 --> 31:48.234
and ask them to, you know,
turn to your side.
31:48.354 --> 31:52.134
Now, to turn to y- turn them to your side,
you need, y- typically, you
31:52.174 --> 31:54.614
either need to pay them money or,
you know,
31:54.654 --> 31:56.034
they should have some ideological
31:56.194 --> 31:58.944
or personal motivation for, you know,
giving you that information.
31:59.764 --> 32:03.404
So we can figure that stuff out. You know,
can we build, you know,
32:03.454 --> 32:05.974
infrastructure to, you know,
pay these people anonymously?
32:06.574 --> 32:09.574
Can we figure out, okay,
whose writings are persuasive and then go,
32:09.614 --> 32:10.154
you know, DM
32:10.214 --> 32:14.084
that persuasive message to
that specific insider and be like,
32:14.104 --> 32:17.274
"Okay, this is why you should, you know,
give us the information." We can figure
32:17.294 --> 32:18.174
out stuff like this.
32:19.514 --> 32:21.974
And lastly,
once we have an insider who's willing to,
32:22.034 --> 32:22.994
you know, turn on their
32:23.734 --> 32:25.414
circle and, you know, give us information,
32:26.394 --> 32:29.584
now how do they actually safely give this
to us? Like, what is the tooling?
32:29.624 --> 32:31.274
What's the infrastructure required?
32:32.254 --> 32:35.014
Uh, for example,
I have written a guide for whistleblowers.
32:35.074 --> 32:37.174
Like, if you are, you know,
US government whistleblower,
32:37.234 --> 32:37.874
how do you safely
32:37.894 --> 32:41.054
whistleblow?
I have written about how you can pay
32:41.134 --> 32:41.874
whistleblowers using
32:41.914 --> 32:45.754
cryptocurrency. I have written about,
you know, what are the tools
32:45.814 --> 32:48.714
that you can use to redact information
before publishing it.
32:48.804 --> 32:50.954
So like,
once a whistleblower has some information,
32:51.614 --> 32:51.904
[coughs]
32:52.514 --> 32:54.374
they can't immediately just leak it.
32:54.434 --> 32:57.134
They need to sit and, like,
redact certain pieces which are sensitive,
32:57.254 --> 32:57.514
and then
32:57.554 --> 33:00.414
only they can leak it.
I've written about tools to make
33:00.434 --> 33:01.094
that easy.
33:01.494 --> 33:04.034
There's also stuff around, like,
who will actually host this information?
33:04.094 --> 33:07.203
Like, whoever tries to host it, you know,
puts it on their website or, uh,
33:07.294 --> 33:10.994
whatever, they again become a target.
So make hosting easy.
33:12.014 --> 33:15.094
I think this all comes broadly around the
social circle umbrella.
33:15.154 --> 33:18.814
How do we break, you know, security of,
uh, people
33:18.834 --> 33:22.514
accelerating AI by, you know,
getting someone in their social circle to
33:22.554 --> 33:22.694
turn
33:22.734 --> 33:23.274
against them.
33:25.294 --> 33:27.074
These are all the methods we have roughly.
33:27.154 --> 33:28.734
Now,
which of these methods am I okay with,
33:28.814 --> 33:29.554
morally speaking?
33:31.454 --> 33:34.414
Uh, again,
I don't have very strong hard lines here,
33:34.514 --> 33:35.254
but I
33:35.314 --> 33:38.744
generally lean towards approaches that
are honest and not deceptive.
33:39.134 --> 33:39.494
Like,
33:40.734 --> 33:44.054
I care about honesty.
I care about maintaining promises to our
33:44.094 --> 33:48.034
allies, which requires honesty. Like,
if you're dishonest, why will people trust
33:48.094 --> 33:50.014
your promises? I care about honesty.
33:50.434 --> 33:53.074
Uh,
I want the truth to come out in the long
33:53.134 --> 33:53.254
run.
33:53.314 --> 33:54.774
Like,
the whole reason I'm doing this entire
33:54.834 --> 33:56.234
leaking thing in the first place is I
33:56.274 --> 33:57.834
want the truth to come out eventually.
33:58.634 --> 33:59.034
Uh,
34:00.374 --> 34:03.334
so it makes sense, like, okay, even
if we are going to, you know, attack these
34:03.374 --> 34:05.134
people,
I want to be honest about how we do it.
34:06.314 --> 34:09.874
I am less keen on things like social
engineering, for example.
34:10.034 --> 34:12.734
Like, social engineering works,
but I'm also not very keen on it for this
34:12.814 --> 34:13.154
reason.
34:14.114 --> 34:14.454
So I,
34:15.414 --> 34:19.214
I care about honesty. However,
I am also okay with some
34:19.254 --> 34:23.014
amount of violence.
I am okay with violating people's consent.
34:23.214 --> 34:25.074
I am okay with resisting authority.
34:25.434 --> 34:29.174
Like, we are not here to be nice. We
are here to fight these people and win.
34:29.934 --> 34:33.734
So for example, if this means, you know,
we hack into their servers, and this
34:33.994 --> 34:36.514
means we break their consent,
and this means we get-- leak
34:36.554 --> 34:37.434
that information anyway,
34:37.494 --> 34:40.554
you know, I am fine with this.
That's my short version of, okay,
34:40.574 --> 34:41.274
which methods am I
34:41.314 --> 34:41.914
fine with. Like,
34:43.134 --> 34:46.914
I am-- I want to be honest
and keep promises, but I
34:46.934 --> 34:50.504
am okay with some amount of, you know,
violence, some amount of, you know,
34:50.534 --> 34:51.834
violating people's consent.
34:52.974 --> 34:53.174
Yeah.
34:56.453 --> 34:58.854
And like, again, morality is personal.
34:58.953 --> 35:01.354
If you want to work with me,
it's possible you have a different answer
35:01.374 --> 35:01.764
to me than,
35:01.974 --> 35:04.634
um, on this question.
You can share your answer with me.
35:04.714 --> 35:06.474
We can, you know, debate about it,
whatever.
35:06.494 --> 35:06.834
Like,
35:07.974 --> 35:09.884
this is all right now my personal
opinions.
35:09.954 --> 35:12.634
Obviously, once we have, you know,
more people working on such stuff,
35:12.714 --> 35:13.074
they will all
35:13.094 --> 35:14.854
have to take their own personal calls on,
you know,
35:15.714 --> 35:16.774
how far are they willing to go.
35:23.054 --> 35:26.434
Cool.
I think now I'll come broadly to the last
35:26.474 --> 35:29.274
section of this video,
which roughly talks, okay, on
35:30.494 --> 35:34.294
who do I want to ally with? Like,
more narrowly, okay, who
35:34.334 --> 35:37.153
should my co-founder be? More broadly,
who should our allies be?
35:40.054 --> 35:43.054
Okay, so the first
and most important allies are obviously,
35:43.154 --> 35:43.954
okay, who do I
35:44.014 --> 35:47.314
work with and where do they get funding
from? So our funder has to be an ally.
35:47.654 --> 35:51.494
Now, I am not sure
35:51.554 --> 35:55.014
if there's any way to run this operation
as a for-profit. Like, I have tried.
35:55.214 --> 35:55.254
I
35:56.394 --> 35:59.484
wish we could do this as a for-profit,
but I'm not sure where we actually get the
35:59.534 --> 36:01.754
profit from. Uh, at least as of right now.
36:02.874 --> 36:05.014
Like,
there are many ways of profiting from
36:05.054 --> 36:05.734
cyberattacks.
36:05.774 --> 36:07.474
However, most of those seem unethical.
36:07.554 --> 36:07.814
Like,
36:09.454 --> 36:11.774
like,
I am okay targeting people who build
36:11.834 --> 36:13.374
superintelligence because, like I said,
36:13.434 --> 36:15.154
these people literally plan to kill me.
36:15.214 --> 36:18.034
You know, if they're planning to kill me,
I'm fine with, okay, of course, we attack
36:18.074 --> 36:21.954
them in return. However,
I'm not okay with, okay, we go,
36:22.034 --> 36:24.314
you know,
attack some random strangers in some
36:24.374 --> 36:25.734
random country, like
36:25.774 --> 36:28.514
cyberattack them, and then, you know,
like lock their computers
36:28.534 --> 36:29.354
and demand a crypto
36:29.394 --> 36:32.694
ransom or whatever.
I'm not keen with that, on with that,
36:32.794 --> 36:33.134
that we go
36:33.194 --> 36:36.314
at-attack some random innocent people who
have done something wrong. Who have...
36:36.374 --> 36:38.814
Sorry,
that we go attack some random innocent
36:38.854 --> 36:39.874
people who have done nothing wrong.
36:39.974 --> 36:40.114
Like-
36:41.586 --> 36:44.206
I--
that seems to go a bit too far even for
36:44.266 --> 36:44.406
me.
36:44.866 --> 36:48.186
Uh, therefore,
I'm not keen on profiting out of
36:48.206 --> 36:49.566
cyberattacks. Uh,
36:51.006 --> 36:53.046
otherwise you can profit out of, like,
defense.
36:53.126 --> 36:56.026
Like, you can sell, you know,
cyber defensive services to, you know,
36:56.226 --> 36:56.506
various
36:56.566 --> 36:58.226
corporates, to your own government.
36:59.046 --> 37:00.346
That I am okay with.
37:01.546 --> 37:03.146
So that could be a way we get profit.
37:03.266 --> 37:05.386
Otherwise,
we just have to do this as a nonprofit.
37:05.626 --> 37:08.966
I think we can get funding as a nonprofit
if we are actually competent.
37:09.086 --> 37:13.066
Like WikiLeaks at some point got over,
you know, $25 million in
37:13.086 --> 37:13.995
crypto donations,
37:14.946 --> 37:16.366
which is
37:17.866 --> 37:20.246
not as much as, you know,
like a billion-dollar tech company
37:20.266 --> 37:21.006
or whatever, but also
37:21.046 --> 37:24.126
that's a lot of money.
So I think we can get funding even
37:24.146 --> 37:24.986
if we operate as a
37:25.046 --> 37:28.446
nonprofit, if we are actually competent,
we are actually getting results.
37:30.386 --> 37:32.026
So yeah, the first person...
37:34.135 --> 37:37.786
[phone ringing] Sorry. Yeah. Yeah,
so the first person I
37:37.826 --> 37:41.686
need, and, uh,
I need to necessarily ally with is,
37:41.726 --> 37:44.406
okay, who are the people funding us?
37:44.496 --> 37:48.326
Another set of people who I think it will
be important to ally with is people
37:48.366 --> 37:50.786
from our own country.
At least they should give us some
37:50.826 --> 37:51.656
assurance they are not
37:51.686 --> 37:54.046
going to put us in prison for the things
we are going to do.
37:55.126 --> 37:57.506
Now, when I say our country,
which country do I mean?
37:57.746 --> 38:01.466
Now, as long as I'm with, living in India,
by default, this means, you know, the
38:01.486 --> 38:03.046
Indian government
and the Indian intelligence.
38:03.146 --> 38:06.926
If I can get some assurance from them
that, okay, if I attack any
38:07.006 --> 38:10.246
US AI company, leak whatever,
like Indian government won't put me in
38:10.286 --> 38:10.626
prison.
38:10.686 --> 38:12.726
Like if I can get that assurance,
that would be nice.
38:16.066 --> 38:16.386
Uh,
38:17.686 --> 38:21.366
also, I'm not choosy. I'm not saying,
"Okay, I will only ally with India here."
38:21.446 --> 38:21.726
Like,
38:22.806 --> 38:26.666
if tomorrow any of these countries,
could be Russia, could be
38:26.706 --> 38:30.406
Israel, could be whatever, they
were willing to
38:30.446 --> 38:33.326
work with me on this sort of stuff.
They were
38:34.266 --> 38:36.406
willing to take, let's say,
a strong stance.
38:36.456 --> 38:37.986
Okay, you know, superintelligence is bad.
38:38.066 --> 38:40.146
We will, you know, go against
38:41.006 --> 38:42.326
the people building superintelligence.
38:42.386 --> 38:44.426
If other countries
are willing to take that stance,
38:44.506 --> 38:46.126
I can also go live in some
38:46.166 --> 38:47.266
other country. Like,
38:48.426 --> 38:50.446
there are some details here.
They're kind of sensitive.
38:50.766 --> 38:50.946
Uh,
38:52.926 --> 38:54.086
but yeah, like
38:55.186 --> 38:59.026
the short answer is, yeah,
I want to be living outside the US
38:59.046 --> 39:02.486
and like figure out a way to, you know,
attack the US government, US AI companies,
39:02.626 --> 39:05.226
because they are the ones who
are right now accelerating this race to
39:05.286 --> 39:05.446
build
39:05.486 --> 39:06.326
superintelligence.
39:09.046 --> 39:11.666
Uh, again, like for example,
if I again go back to, you know,
39:11.706 --> 39:12.236
the WikiLeaks
39:12.306 --> 39:14.706
donation.
Now WikiLeaks got $25 million in
39:14.726 --> 39:15.246
donations.
39:15.306 --> 39:17.426
Like,
who did they actually get those donations
39:17.466 --> 39:18.666
from? We don't really know.
39:18.706 --> 39:21.686
Like some donors' names got leaked,
but mostly we don't actually know now.
39:22.226 --> 39:24.366
This may have been some, you know,
random American person.
39:24.426 --> 39:26.626
It may have been a Chinese person.
It may have been a Russian person.
39:26.646 --> 39:28.046
We actually don't know.
39:30.986 --> 39:34.886
Uh, if I am working in India,
I think I have more freedom to, you
39:34.906 --> 39:38.686
know, do things publicly. Like,
I can be more public about what I'm
39:38.706 --> 39:42.566
doing. I can also be more independent of,
you know, Indian formal,
39:42.806 --> 39:44.866
whatever, military chain of command,
et cetera.
39:45.756 --> 39:48.586
And I think this is a good thing because
people will trust us more.
39:48.726 --> 39:49.746
I will get feedback.
39:51.006 --> 39:54.226
But the downside is, yeah,
so far I've not been able to find people
39:54.306 --> 39:54.906
to work with.
39:55.086 --> 39:57.725
If I can find people to work with in
India, that would be great.
39:59.766 --> 40:03.386
If I hypothetically, again, this
is strictly hypothetical,
40:03.746 --> 40:07.586
went to Russia to work on this,
like I will be forced to be a lot
40:07.606 --> 40:10.526
more private about it,
and I will be forced to be a lot less
40:10.586 --> 40:11.566
independent about
40:11.626 --> 40:11.866
it.
40:13.046 --> 40:16.726
Uh, if I hypothetically
were to go live in Israel or something,
40:16.786 --> 40:18.526
obviously that has its own trade-offs
again.
40:20.146 --> 40:24.116
What I do strongly feel though is
that people who are living in the
40:24.126 --> 40:27.846
US, in the, in UK, in Western Europe,
if any of you
40:27.906 --> 40:31.186
think you have protection
when fighting against the US government,
40:31.366 --> 40:31.766
I think you are
40:31.786 --> 40:33.826
sorely mistaken, and you
are going to regret it.
40:33.906 --> 40:36.966
Like worst case,
you're going to pay for it with many years
40:37.146 --> 40:37.666
in prison.
40:38.626 --> 40:38.926
Uh,
40:40.206 --> 40:44.026
if you are living in, you know, Europe
and you're planning these sorts of
40:44.086 --> 40:45.126
offensive actions,
40:46.046 --> 40:49.666
you should probably leave Europe
is my guess. But there are details there.
40:49.846 --> 40:52.046
I don't want to get into that.
40:56.166 --> 40:57.966
Yeah, so the, again,
coming back to allies.
40:58.106 --> 41:00.176
The first ally is, okay,
people who can give us funding.
41:00.265 --> 41:02.736
Second ally is, okay,
if our own country can protect us,
41:02.806 --> 41:03.606
that would be nice.
41:08.086 --> 41:11.886
Uh, a third set of allies,
it would be nice if we, there are some
41:11.926 --> 41:15.026
insiders in the US AI companies
and the US government who will work with
41:15.106 --> 41:15.306
us.
41:15.366 --> 41:18.626
Like this is not like absolutely
essential, but it would be nice
41:18.686 --> 41:19.306
if we had people
41:19.326 --> 41:19.806
like this.
41:21.646 --> 41:24.966
Uh, it would be nice if there
are people outside our organization who
41:25.026 --> 41:25.486
are giving us
41:25.506 --> 41:27.566
good feedback. Like most feedback
41:28.446 --> 41:31.526
tends to suck.
Like most people have no context shared
41:31.566 --> 41:31.866
with you.
41:31.926 --> 41:35.835
They don't understand the constraints
you're operating with, but at least
41:35.835 --> 41:39.246
some feedback would be useful, and
that feedback is important,
41:39.826 --> 41:41.905
and I want at least some people to be
giving us feedback.
41:41.966 --> 41:44.525
I don't want to be just completely
isolated from the rest of society.
41:46.486 --> 41:46.866
Uh,
41:47.806 --> 41:50.646
example of feedback.
I previously said I don't actually know
41:50.666 --> 41:51.506
which leaks will help
41:51.526 --> 41:54.965
versus will not help. Like I have guesses,
but I'm not sure.
41:55.006 --> 41:58.866
If someone is very skilled at politics,
they know, okay, these leaks
41:58.886 --> 42:01.786
will specifically help. You know,
I want that sort of feedback.
42:01.846 --> 42:02.526
Like I want to know.
42:03.426 --> 42:05.525
So I also want that sort of ally.
42:06.946 --> 42:10.806
Okay, allies who I don't want.
I don't want to ally with any media house.
42:11.306 --> 42:13.746
Uh,
I don't want to ally with people who will
42:13.786 --> 42:14.886
help us with recruiting.
42:15.986 --> 42:17.186
I have reasons, but yeah.
42:18.066 --> 42:20.746
Like I want a small team
that actually has a mission
42:20.786 --> 42:21.806
and can actually do what it
42:21.846 --> 42:25.786
takes rather than, okay,
broad group of alliance of people who have
42:25.826 --> 42:28.446
network and blah, blah, blah,
but don't actually do anything.
42:32.366 --> 42:36.106
Yeah. Also, who will respect us?
Like we are planning to, or at least I
42:36.206 --> 42:40.086
am and people I want to work with,
are planning to do something
42:40.126 --> 42:43.506
at least somewhat radical.
Like not everyone is going to respect us.
42:43.586 --> 42:45.946
Not everyone is going to like us for the
fact that we're doing this.
42:47.110 --> 42:51.050
Some people will respect us. In general,
again, this is a guess, I
42:51.110 --> 42:53.330
don't know,
but my guess from limited number of
42:53.370 --> 42:54.090
conversations,
42:54.750 --> 42:58.450
people who value power more
are going to respect us more in general.
42:58.970 --> 43:02.390
So like some tech founders will respect
us, some billionaires will respect us,
43:02.510 --> 43:02.649
some
43:02.690 --> 43:06.190
politicians will respect us,
some social media influencers will respect
43:06.270 --> 43:06.630
us, some
43:06.830 --> 43:10.170
actors will, like, respect us,
some libertarians will respect us, some,
43:10.250 --> 43:10.370
you know,
43:10.430 --> 43:13.110
more radical-leaning leftists will respect
us.
43:14.710 --> 43:17.990
People who value power less will tend to
respect us less.
43:18.690 --> 43:21.630
Uh, or people who value, you know,
knowledge and truth less,
43:21.750 --> 43:22.250
they will tend to
43:22.270 --> 43:25.730
respect us less. Now,
I think religious people will respect us
43:25.790 --> 43:26.080
less,
43:26.270 --> 43:29.790
uh, liberals will respect us less,
people without any strong political
43:29.830 --> 43:30.170
opinion
43:30.190 --> 43:31.370
will respect us less.
43:32.490 --> 43:32.790
Uh,
43:36.010 --> 43:38.570
and like that's just a thing. This
is not something I can choose.
43:38.650 --> 43:41.070
This is just a fact about reality.
Some people will like us more
43:41.090 --> 43:41.580
and some people
43:41.590 --> 43:44.299
will hate us for what we're doing,
and that's just it.
43:46.890 --> 43:50.590
Uh, if we do succeed,
I think we will inspire more people to do
43:50.630 --> 43:50.869
similar
43:50.910 --> 43:54.850
things like this. Like, I am inspired by,
you know, long chain of people,
43:54.950 --> 43:58.750
many of which were broadly part of the
cypherpunk activist movement.
43:59.650 --> 43:59.970
Uh,
44:01.050 --> 44:03.110
if I succeed,
I will go inspire more people.
44:03.450 --> 44:04.530
That will happen.
44:04.610 --> 44:04.850
Like,
44:05.690 --> 44:08.010
I will prove that, like,
you can just go do things.
44:08.190 --> 44:08.510
Like,
44:10.470 --> 44:13.510
a lot of people are pessimistic about
their ability to, you know,
44:13.570 --> 44:14.370
change society in
44:14.390 --> 44:17.440
some very big way. Like,
I have talked to many people like this.
44:17.510 --> 44:20.810
This is, like, not some-- a very rare
or unique thing.
44:20.890 --> 44:23.440
Most people are pessimistic about their
ability to inf--
44:23.470 --> 44:24.810
affect large scale society
44:25.050 --> 44:28.390
changes. So if we can succeed at all,
this, you know,
44:29.270 --> 44:32.610
can help make them more optimistic
that they can also go do something.
44:38.590 --> 44:42.250
If you're still watching this video by
now, you already probably have a decent
44:42.330 --> 44:43.910
idea,
do you actually want to work with me on
44:43.970 --> 44:44.530
this or not?
44:44.610 --> 44:47.850
Like, but yeah, again,
I will just reiterate if this
44:47.870 --> 44:48.510
is not already
44:48.570 --> 44:49.370
clear, like,
44:50.590 --> 44:54.470
yeah, I prefer honesty. I prefer, like, we
44:54.510 --> 44:56.810
are okay with little bit violent approach,
too.
44:57.170 --> 45:00.590
So if you are okay with little bit violent
approach, too, then you should work with
45:00.630 --> 45:00.830
me.
45:01.970 --> 45:05.730
If you believe superintelligence
is coming, the
45:05.770 --> 45:09.610
world may be ending, especially
if you have emotionally internalized this,
45:09.710 --> 45:12.190
again, that's a good signal
that you should be working with me.
45:13.110 --> 45:16.390
If you value power,
that's a signal you should work with me.
45:17.090 --> 45:19.870
If you understand that the world
is run by self-interest,
45:21.090 --> 45:24.450
uh,
and systems that constrain self-interest,
45:24.610 --> 45:25.070
that is again
45:25.150 --> 45:26.210
a signal you should work with me.
45:27.550 --> 45:30.090
In terms of, like, competence, uh,
45:32.490 --> 45:36.070
I am personally good at generalist
research and creating new
45:36.130 --> 45:38.710
ideas. Like, again,
I'm not saying I'm some, you know,
45:38.720 --> 45:39.650
world expert or anything.
45:39.710 --> 45:42.150
I'm not.
But I think that's what I'm good at.
45:43.090 --> 45:46.750
I am also decent at software development.
Again, I'm not an expert at that.
45:47.030 --> 45:50.950
Like, I have built multiple apps.
I've worked on multiple scraping projects.
45:51.230 --> 45:53.990
I have some decent understanding of how
OpSec works.
45:56.730 --> 46:00.500
I am willing to upskill in cybersecurity,
so I'll become
46:00.530 --> 46:02.990
better at, you know, security research,
hacking, and so on.
46:03.470 --> 46:06.770
Again, I don't think I can become, like,
the world's best hacker or something, but
46:06.850 --> 46:09.470
I think if I put in the hours,
I put in the work, I can get, like,
46:09.550 --> 46:09.970
decent.
46:11.110 --> 46:12.710
So that's what I am good at.
46:13.730 --> 46:17.150
What I am not good at is networking,
fundraising,
46:17.310 --> 46:18.390
persuading people.
46:19.530 --> 46:21.730
Like, if you are good at those things,
you know,
46:21.850 --> 46:23.230
you will have a complementary fit.
46:23.710 --> 46:27.130
Uh, if you can help me raise funding,
for example, like, that would be a very
46:27.190 --> 46:28.990
strong signal that you should be working
with me.
46:31.110 --> 46:34.370
If you are skilled as a hacker, again,
you are welcome to work with me.
46:34.570 --> 46:37.130
Like,
anyone who's willing to work on this sort
46:37.170 --> 46:38.550
of radical project is
46:38.630 --> 46:42.410
going to be useful to me and also, well,
ideally to you.
46:42.450 --> 46:43.770
Like,
you should also be doing this for
46:43.810 --> 46:46.140
yourself, not just to appease
46:46.370 --> 46:49.610
Samuel. Like,
you should believe in leaking information.
46:49.670 --> 46:51.450
You should believe that, okay,
the world is ending.
46:51.750 --> 46:53.830
Like, this has to come from within you.
46:53.910 --> 46:54.510
I can't, you know,
46:55.830 --> 46:58.550
convince... Well, maybe I can convince,
but ultimately, like,
46:58.560 --> 46:59.510
the drive to this has
46:59.550 --> 47:01.450
to come from within.
I want to work with people who
47:01.490 --> 47:02.670
are self-motivated
47:04.110 --> 47:06.150
and agentic and so on.
47:09.450 --> 47:12.550
Uh,
maybe a minor aside on how should our
47:12.570 --> 47:13.430
OpSec work.
47:13.510 --> 47:13.830
Like...
47:18.850 --> 47:22.250
Yeah, this might seem like a tangent,
but I think it also needs to be covered.
47:22.630 --> 47:25.370
Uh,
I think we need to have the ability to
47:25.430 --> 47:26.510
keep at least something
47:26.610 --> 47:29.310
secret. Like,
we are getting information on our enemies.
47:29.410 --> 47:31.510
We don't want to just leak everything we
get.
47:31.550 --> 47:33.090
Like, some of those things
are actually private,
47:33.130 --> 47:34.370
and we want to keep them private.
47:34.450 --> 47:36.930
So some things we have to keep secret,
and the rest we will leak.
47:38.290 --> 47:40.790
Also, some of our methods,
some of our capabilities,
47:40.870 --> 47:42.050
how did we attack, that
47:42.090 --> 47:43.330
also needs to be kept secret.
47:44.510 --> 47:46.370
So these two things need to be secret a
bit.
47:46.710 --> 47:48.990
Rest remaining apart from this,
I think it's fine if we
47:49.010 --> 47:49.970
are public about a bunch of
47:50.010 --> 47:53.590
stuff. Like, again, you can debate, argue,
whatever with me, like,
47:54.850 --> 47:56.410
uh, opinions vary on that. Uh,
47:58.170 --> 48:02.090
now just as I think it is important we
are able to keep some secrets, I
48:02.110 --> 48:04.510
also think it will be difficult for us to
keep secrets.
48:04.550 --> 48:04.810
Like,
48:06.670 --> 48:09.270
in general, if you go read about,
you know, all the activists
48:09.310 --> 48:09.860
and so on who have
48:09.870 --> 48:12.610
worked on similar things,
generally they have found it hard to keep
48:12.670 --> 48:13.330
secrets even
48:13.370 --> 48:14.150
though they had to.
48:15.850 --> 48:18.550
And, like,
that is generally my whole worldview.
48:18.570 --> 48:20.950
Like, attacking people,
getting their information is easy,
48:21.290 --> 48:22.150
and defending your own
48:22.210 --> 48:24.830
secrets is hard. That
is why I'm saying let's go attack them,
48:24.870 --> 48:25.610
get their secrets.
48:25.730 --> 48:28.770
But on the flip side,
that also means they can also attack us
48:28.790 --> 48:29.330
and get all our
48:29.370 --> 48:30.450
secrets. So,
48:32.410 --> 48:34.590
like, that is just a fact about reality.
48:34.670 --> 48:37.610
This is where the playing field looks like
right now, where attack is easier and
48:37.630 --> 48:40.490
defense is hard. Uh,
48:42.870 --> 48:46.590
if we had, like, a large group of people,
and then we actually, you know, somewhat
48:46.670 --> 48:50.350
isolated from society,
then I think we can keep some
48:50.410 --> 48:53.270
secrets. We can, you know,
remain psychologically healthy.
48:53.350 --> 48:55.970
Like, the hard part of secrets
is not just technical stuff.
48:56.050 --> 48:58.230
The hard part is the effects of secrets on
your psychology
48:59.278 --> 49:00.598
Many people have written about this.
49:00.758 --> 49:03.318
This is again a whole separate thesis I
can get into.
49:04.018 --> 49:07.638
But like, yeah, keeping secrets
is hard because it's psychologically
49:07.698 --> 49:10.458
costly. Like, especially
if you think you're morally wrong in
49:10.518 --> 49:11.218
keeping the secret,
49:11.288 --> 49:13.078
then you are like done for.
49:13.978 --> 49:14.198
Uh,
49:15.898 --> 49:17.878
so we need to have strong moral
justifications.
49:17.938 --> 49:19.538
Okay, these are the things we
are keeping secret.
49:19.598 --> 49:21.238
These are the things we are leaking.
This is why.
49:21.298 --> 49:22.938
Like,
we need to be clear in our own heads about
49:22.998 --> 49:23.958
that so that we can remain
49:23.978 --> 49:26.858
psychologically healthy. That
is important.
49:28.578 --> 49:32.428
And yeah, like at least at the start,
once it's just me or one,
49:32.738 --> 49:36.278
like two people, three people, like we
are just not going to be able to keep
49:36.478 --> 49:39.998
any secrets. Like that's unfortunate,
but that's the reality.
49:40.038 --> 49:43.538
Like once we have a lot more people,
once we have money, competence, et cetera,
49:43.658 --> 49:47.278
then we may be able to pull it off.
But at the start, like keeping secrets
49:47.307 --> 49:47.538
is going
49:47.558 --> 49:49.858
to be hard even for us.
Like not just for our enemies,
49:49.918 --> 49:50.598
but also for us.
49:53.238 --> 49:53.998
Okay. So
49:55.078 --> 49:57.998
if you want to work with me,
you can contact me on Signal.
49:58.098 --> 49:59.738
My Signal username is available.
50:00.918 --> 50:04.598
I do not think the risks are very high
if you just have like a quick call with
50:04.638 --> 50:04.818
me.
50:05.158 --> 50:07.718
But if you actually work with me
full-time, then yes, there
50:07.758 --> 50:08.738
are significant risks
50:08.778 --> 50:10.378
to you for sure, 100%.
50:12.598 --> 50:15.038
Uh,
if you want to actually work with me
50:15.098 --> 50:16.538
full-time, like beyond just, you know,
50:16.598 --> 50:19.688
first one or two calls,
like I think the actual answer is,
50:19.758 --> 50:20.238
you know, you have to
50:20.278 --> 50:21.718
take a flight,
you have to meet me in person.
50:21.818 --> 50:23.298
I don't think there's any way to avoid
that.
50:23.398 --> 50:23.718
Like,
50:24.878 --> 50:28.818
and once we are working together,
we will also have to figure out a plan to
50:28.838 --> 50:30.858
keep your loved ones safe. Like,
50:32.638 --> 50:34.038
again,
those are things we'll have to figure out
50:34.078 --> 50:35.198
later, but they're important.
50:35.348 --> 50:35.738
And
50:37.478 --> 50:40.338
yeah,
like we have to live in a country outside,
50:40.398 --> 50:41.218
you know, US, UK,
50:41.298 --> 50:45.078
Europe, and we have to stay outside
and your social
50:45.118 --> 50:47.668
circle has to also stay outside.
And then we have to, you know,
50:47.678 --> 50:48.098
work on this
50:48.118 --> 50:50.658
full-time.
Like that seems like the only way I think
50:50.698 --> 50:51.858
we can actually pull this off.
50:54.858 --> 50:58.618
Okay. So that was a 50-minute
50:58.658 --> 51:01.038
video apparently. That
was way longer than I thought.
51:01.178 --> 51:03.778
Uh, this is my first take of the video,
by the way.
51:03.878 --> 51:07.818
I have not, you know,
made multiple takes and I don't think I
51:07.898 --> 51:09.987
will. Like I said, I am busy and,
you know,
51:10.017 --> 51:11.878
this plan will be outdated in six
51:11.958 --> 51:14.598
months anyway. Like
if you ask Samuel six months from now what
51:14.638 --> 51:15.318
his plan is, it will
51:15.358 --> 51:17.948
have been modified a fair bit anyway,
you know.
51:18.078 --> 51:19.618
So this is just my video on
51:20.578 --> 51:23.818
as of what, 15 July 2026, you know,
51:24.378 --> 51:27.958
here is my galaxy brain incomplete,
possibly in-inaccurate
51:28.218 --> 51:31.598
plan for what to do things.
If you want to work with me on this
51:31.658 --> 51:32.058
or something
51:32.098 --> 51:32.908
similar to this,
51:33.978 --> 51:35.918
like do reach out. Like,
51:38.458 --> 51:40.518
yeah, just do reach out. Like
51:41.598 --> 51:45.478
I am somewhat competent,
I am very motivated, and I think we
51:45.538 --> 51:47.398
can figure it out as we go along.
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